Election 2023: Live updates from the second leaders’ debate

Hello, I’m beaming in from my lounge as we count down the minutes until the second leaders’ debate of Election 2023. We’ve got The Spinoff’s editor Mad Chapman in the studio in central Auckland, and unless she’s had her phone confiscated we’ll hopefully hear from her during the ad breaks.

For now, I’m just catching the tail end of the Newshub sport and weather – I heard mention of thunder storms and heavy showers – and waiting for the fun to kick off. I don’t remember the last time I actually watched the weather, but it can be quite riveting can’t it?

See you back here in a few minutes. I cannot wait.

Mike Puru has gone, Paddy Gower is here. “It’s decision time, New Zealand,” he opened with. “The battle lines are drawn and the gloves are off.”

Tax “swindles” were mentioned, nicknames were dropped – “the red Chris or the blue Chris” – and a whole heap of undecided voters appeared on screen in the Auckland Q Theatre.

And we’re off with a question on whether crime is out of control, after a lovely friendly handshake from the two leaders as they entered the studio. They really do seem to quite like each other, or are very good at pretending they do.

“It’s absolutely out of control,” started Luxon, who had won the coin toss. “It’s a challenge,” said Hipkins. “You don’t solve crime by starving police of their resources.”

People are feeling frustrated, said Luxon, who said some shopkeepers are going to work each day as “though they are in a warzone”.

In the studio is a shopkeeper who says she has been “robbed all the time”, according to Gower. “New Zealand has changed and she wants to know what you two will do with the lawlessness we face.”

Hipkins cited his party’s plan to identify young offenders and turn their lives around before they can reoffend. “Bootcamps don’t work,” he said.

But Luxon said that it will. “What you’re doing is not working, Chris.”

This is already more dramatic than the first leaders’ debate with both Chrises yelling over each other and Gower struggling to get a word in. I can barely make out anything but I am loving it. Luxon even noted that it wouldn’t be “good TV” if they keep talking over the top of one another.

National was proposing to “repeat the same mistakes over and over again”, said Hipkins, while Luxon said that after six years “crime had got worse”.

I think Gower summed it up best: “We are really getting going here.”

As noted by The Spinoff’s editor-at-large Toby Manhire, the Labour leader has taken a much more energetic approach to the opening of tonight’s debate. “Putting challenges and questions directly to Luxon rather than repeating the first debate approach, in which he channeled everything until the halfway point via the moderator,” he said.

It’s certainly a more fiery Hipkins than we’ve seen thus far on the campaign. Luxon even noted it, saying “Paddy is the moderator” and “It’s not going to make great TV if we’re talking all over the top of each other. Calm down.”

It’s quite hard to liveblog when they’re both yelling. I’m trying my best!

Luxon’s been asked about his desire to take gang patches away from gangs and try and outlaw gangs entirely. “Why are gang members’ rights greater than the rest of New Zealand?” asked Luxon. “Gang life is not a pathway for young people to pursue.”

But Hipkins said that his government had changed the law to allow police to take gang equipment off them “after the fact”, saying it would be dangerous to send officers into, for example, a gang funeral.

“We want to go after their guns, their convoys, their cash,” said Hipkins, while Luxon repeated that there has been “six years” to do that.

Gower has asked both leaders to commit to having more police officers than gang members. Luxon said “absolutely” he would commit to it, while Hipkins agreed and said his government had employed more police officers than any other. They’re agreeing with one another again, reminiscent of debate one.

For a brief second there I thought that Christopher Luxon was about to promise to decriminalise MDMA. Instead, he mistakenly said that someone caught using MDMA at a festival wasn’t a criminal, before clarifying that they technically were.

He added that he believed the current approach to drug use was the right one, but Chris Hipkins noted that National opposed proposals to make drug testing at festivals easier.

Hipkins agreed that while drug users were technically criminals, as using a substance like MDMA was covered by the Crimes Act, drug testing was a good policy.

And both were asked whether they had ever used MDMA before. Neither, so they say, had.

There was a long discussion over whether an orange would cost $1 or 85 cents under the Labour Party’s GST proposal, with Hipkins ultimately concluding that “seasonal fluctuation” was a real thing.

Luxon said that the policy wouldn’t work and the Labour Party was suggesting that there would be a person with a clipboard checking all the stores for the price of oranges. We’ve sort of heard all this stuff before.

We then moved onto taxes and briefly ventured back into foreign buyer tax territory. “Your numbers don’t add up,” said Hipkins, turning to Luxon. “It’s not true,” replied Luxon.

The National leader reiterated he would resign if he couldn’t deliver tax relief, but wouldn’t pledge to resign if the foreign buyer tax couldn’t bring in the predicted revenue.

Paddy Gower looked over it, I felt over it, and then we briefly moved on to petrol.

To close out this section, Gower asked both leaders to say how they would describe the economy. “Recovering,” said Hipkins. “Broken,” said Luxon.

A little tidbit for those who follow this stuff closely, Luxon also said his party’s full fiscal plan would be out on Friday.

One of the biggest rounds of applause so far came after Hipkins took aim at Luxon for failing to release the plan earlier (Luxon had previously said it would be out ahead of early voting, and international New Zealanders can vote now). “Christopher if you can’t keep your promises in opposition, why should New Zealanders believe you can keep your promises in government?”

Reminiscent of John Key, Hipkins challenged Luxon to “show us your numbers”.

I’m not even in the audience but I have it on good authority (three separate sources) that I was briefly name dropped by the audience warm up, friend of The Spinoff and co-winner of The Traitors NZ, Sam Smith who is at the debate tonight.

Thanks Sam, I’m sorry I couldn’t wave back.

Now is this ad break over yet?

Last election’s Newshub debate was dominated by Covid, but since we’ve kind of moved on, it’s barely had a mention in this health section of the debate.

However, after Luxon said the health system was “broken” and “every single wait list has gone backwards”, Hipkins quickly retorted: “There was a global pandemic!” It got some laughs from the crowd.

Hipkins said the health system was improving and a work in progress.

Both leaders were asked about bowel cancer screening and both pledged to bring the age down to 50 (from 60), the same as Australia.

Hipkins took aim at Luxon for promising to scrap the free prescriptions policy introduced by Labour. “The number of people ending up in our EDs for basic stuff… is alarming,” he said. “We can do something about that. National wants to put that $5 fee back on.”

Luxon said that growing the local homegrown workforce was important, citing long wait times for cancer diagnoses and treatments.

After a bit of indeterminable cross talk, Luxon accused Hipkins of being “negative” over the last few weeks and said he feels like he should give him a hug. But Hipkins said he was only negative because Luxon can’t answer a question, which got a round of applause and some whoops from the crowd.

Christopher Luxon has said he doesn’t want to work with New Zealand First, just days after saying he may work with New Zealand First.

Asked whether New Zealand was a “racist” country, neither leader would say that it was. However, Hipkins said that there were some politicians that were playing the race card and read out a quote from a New Zealand First candidate that Luxon admitted was unacceptable.

“Is that racist?” challenged Hipkins, pointing the finger at Luxon for saying he was prepared to work with NZ First. “Winston Peters described migration as an ‘Asian invasion’,” Hipkins said, visibly frustrated.

Luxon said that Labour had worked with NZ First for three years, to which Hipkins replied: “And I’d never do it again”.

Paddy Gower has teased more questions on Peters and NZ First, so buckle in.

Asked whether he could guarantee that an orange that cost $1 currently would cost 85c once GST was removed – ie that the saving would be passed on to the consumer, not gobbled up by the supermarket – Hipkins attempted to swerve the question by referencing the fluctuating prices of fresh produce due to seasonality (more on that earlier in the live blog).

That’s all good and well, but Hipkins perhaps showed he’s never had a citrus tree in his backyard by claiming an orange would cost more in winter than in summer. Oranges are in fact in season in winter, and, as this chart shows, are usually cheapest at some point between August and October.

The agreement boys are back to agreeing, this time both saying schools can choose to ban phones and ban sugary drinks – but only Labour is proposing to ban sugary drinks and only National would ban phones in schools.

Both said there was an evidence base for their proposed policy, and neither would say they’d support the other party’s plan.

It feels kind of like that Spiderman meme where they’re both pointing at each other, despite being different Spiderpeople? Now I’m confused.

Neither would commit to one another’s policy when it came to phones or fizzy drinks, but both are keen to take action on vaping.

Labour has proposed to limit the number of vape stores to 600 across the country. “They will be licnesed and they won’t be near schools,” said Hipkins.

Luxon was challenged on his party’s lack of policy, and quite quickly signalled he backed Labour’s. “We support that direction of travel,” he said, agreeing with 600 for a max number of vape stores.

“That’s my policy!” said Hipkins.

“It’s the same – a very similar policy – to these guys, cause it actually makes sense,” said Luxon of his as-yet-unannounced policy.

Luxon signalled that he would consider making vapes prescription-only if there was evidence it would work, but Hipkins said that could drive people back to smoking cigarettes.

Just a tweet, because it’s the ad break and I need a drink.

There is a debate on TV3 at the moment and all they seem to be doing is talking about and attacking Winston Peters.

Maybe they should both have the courage to have me there to debate them properly. Three of us would be there and only one of us would be ready.

— Winston Peters (@winstonpeters) September 27, 2023

I didn’t expect that “range anxiety” would crop up on the bingo card for both debates, but here we are.

There was a discussion on incentivising uptake of electric vehicles, with Chris Hipkins talking up his government’s clean car discount and taking aim at Christopher Luxon for wanting to scrap it. “EVs are going to win because consumers are going to choose them,” said Luxon, advocating his policy to install hundreds of new EV chargers up and down the country.

Luxon said that drivers currently have “range anxiety” which has made people scared to purchase an expensive electric vehicle. But Hipkins said that National would make the EVs more expensive, which was the real disincentive.

The big question, though, was whether either leader had stolen a road cone. Luxon said no, but Hipkins admitted he’d had one in a student flat he lived in. (It’s not a crime, by the way). There was also a brief discussion about potholes, but I missed most of this sorry.

Earlier, the leaders were asked whether they would stop some forestry companies from being able to operate, in the wake of the slash disaster caused by Cyclone Gabrielle. Hipkins said that some trees need to be cut down because they can be dangerous if they are not, but both leaders said that operators should be held accountable if they don’t operate safely. “They should be held accountable for it. There should be serious penalties for it,” said Luxon.

There was a lot of pre-debate chatter at TVNZ about what colour Chris Hipkins’ tie was for the first leaders’ debate. Was it red? Purple? Magenta? Burgundy!? Whatever it was, it came nowhere close to being as vibrantly Labour red as the neck adornment Hipkins plucked out his wardrobe for tonight.

Christopher Luxon has stuck to his tried and true National blue throughout the campaign and tonight is no exception. I’m also a great admirer of Luxon’s tie tying technique. Is it a really strong triple windsor? It looks like nothing could remove it from his neck.

Anyway, the ad break is over.

Christopher Luxon won’t say if he regrets his view that abortion is tantamount to murder.

That was the view of Luxon very early on his tenure as National Party leader, and as someone who openly holds pro-life positions, is probably still his view.

While Luxon reiterated tonight that would “resign” rather than tamper with New Zealand’s abortion laws, he said that “as prime minister I would represent all the views of all New Zealanders”. He wouldn’t say whether or not he regretted it, despite being challenged by Patrick Gower and Chris Hipkins.

On decriminalisation of cannabis, Hipkins said that he recognised the views of the public following the 2020 referendum but said that he wouldn’t rule out further changes in the future. He wants to see a “bipartisanship” approach to the issue, but Luxon quickly ended that by saying his party didn’t back any change.

A quick diversion into potential coalition arrangements saw Hipkins label Winston Peters “bad” for the country, with Luxon mysteriously saying he doesn’t know the NZ First leader. “I don’t know him, Paddy, I don’t know him well,” said Luxon, to which Gower said: “Everyone knows him! It’s Winston Peters.”

Not much to note during this ad break but that police drama looked quite good and I’ve enjoyed seeing all the political ads pop up one by one. We just saw the little bobble-head tax ad and both Luxon and Hipkins have cropped up in their own videos as well.

Remember that while the debate wraps at 8.30, there will then be a panel discussion and the all-important Spinoff groupthink will go up a little later in the night. Who’s winning, do you think? Is it Paddy Gower? Is it the voting public? Or is it Luxon’s magnificent tie?

Oh the ad break is over and some nice brass music has brought us back into the action. Get ready for “quick-fireeeeee”.

Tonight’s leaders’ debate has wrapped up with a cavalcade of quickfire questions (or, as Paddy Gower said, “quick-fiyahhhh”).

Here are the questions and answers as summarised by me.

1. Is alcohol or cannabis more dangerous? Both said alcohol.
2. Introduce menopause leave? Both open to looking at.
3. Have you been cyber scammed? Both said no.
4. Should banks be forced to pay back people who were mistakenly scammed? Hipkins said there has to be good rules in place, Luxon said there is a role for banks.
5. Is AI a threat to humanity? Hipkins said potentially yes, while Luxon said there are good and bad parts.
6. Some sort of AI tax to compensate people who lose jobs to AI? Hipkins looked confused and said he didn’t know how it would work, Luxon said we’re a long way from that.
7. How did the leaders celebrate Matariki? Luxon had “an awesome time” with Ngati Whatua Orakei, Hipkins was out of the country but likes the Wellington fireworks.
8. Should NZ stay GE free or embrace it? Luxon said embrace it, Hipkins said proceed with caution.
9. Live animal exports? Hipkins a quick no, “they’re cruel”. Luxon said yes if there are good guidelines.
10. Ban international tourists from driving to Milford Sound to preserve environment? Both said no.
11. Who would be better foreign affairs minister: Judith Collins or Winston Peters? Luxon said he hadn’t thought about. Hipkins retorted: “That’s not a great endorsement of Judith. You know she’s the one that’s on your team?”
12. Who would be a better minister for Auckland: Michael Wood or Chloe Swarbrick? Hipkins said Wood.
13. Should Winston Peters be debating them? No.
14. Should charities pay tax (eg Sanitarium)? Both said they’re open to it.
15. Have either taken a bus in a private capacity recently? Hipkins said within the last year with his kids, Luxon said the Waiheke bus from the terminal.
16. Should we host the 2026 Commonwealth Games? Both said no.
17. Who is the greatest PM? “Are you going to say Chris Hipkins?” said Luxon. “Are you?” said Hipkins. Ultimately, Hipkins said Michael Joseph Savage, Luxon said Keith Holyoake (poor John Key).
18. Should cats be added to predator free 2050 goals? Both said yes.
19. Should vaccine injured people be compensated? Both said no.
20. Second harbour crossing should be tolled? Both said maybe.
21. Should Shaun Johnson be given a knighthood? Luxon said he was open to it, Hipkins said you can’t say that in public as PM.
22. Will the ABs win the Rugby World Cup? Both said yes.
23. Have you told any lies, fibs, mistruths? Both said they have owned up when they’ve made mistakes.

And Hipkins got the final jab on the night: “You haven’t given any information, let alone misinformation.”

That’s all from me, goodnight.