Claire Mabey talks growing up in small towns, post-quake Lyttelton and how to juggle bookish jobs with programme director of WORD Christchurch, Kiran Dass.

Claire Mabey: What was your first gig in the book industry? 

Kiran Dass: Browsers Bookshop in Hamilton was my introduction into taking books really seriously. Now that I think about it, it was also where I started creating events. There were these secret bookshelf doors in the shop: one led into our backroom, and another led into this concrete bunker where all the recycling and boxes and the books that were going to be disposed of went. 

My boyfriend at the time said “Wouldn’t it be cool to put on a gig in there?” So I asked my boss if I could (and said that one of the guys in the band went to jazz school. As soon as she heard the word jazz she said, “Yes”). 

So after we closed up, I let the audience in and led them into this little concrete room in the back of the bookshop and it was basically a free noise show. Heaps of people came and were surrounded by boxes. 

What was the name of the band? 

They were called The Wild Bunch and it was the year 2001. Some other bands then asked if they could play in there but I didn’t like their music so I said no. 

Can you remember the first Writers Festival that you went to as an audience member?

The very first one would have been in the early 2000s in Wellington, and it would have been the New Zealand Festival of the Arts because I was working at Unity Books and we were the festival booksellers. I grew up in Ngāruawāhia where there sure weren’t any writers festivals. So when I started working at Unity Books and helped with the festival bookselling, that was where I started to take note of how things worked, and the role that festivals can have. 

Were you always a big reader? 

Yes. Because I grew up in a small town and it was quite an isolating world: it was pre-internet! And having niche interests and being an observer meant that books, music and films were my friends.  Those were the things that really nourished me. My oldest sister’s first job out of high school was at the Ngāruawāhia Public Library. I would have been about five years old then, and I used to go and see her at the library all the time. It was an absolute thrill. And I still have that thrill to this day: of getting a new-to-me book. It was like a candy shop, and those books opened up the world in a place where the world felt small. In a small town that had nothing going on. Like, really, nothing. I guess while my friends at school were playing netball I was being a nerd and reading books. But you can’t tell me now that was a waste of time!

You are such a tastemaker in New Zealand. Your passions and interests are influential in that I think you lead people towards books and music they might not notice. For example Catherine Taylor who is coming to WORD Christchurch with her memoir The Stirrings. Were you always sure of your own tastes? 

Absolutely. Absolutely, from when I was really young I was alway very sure of my ears, what I was listening to, and very sure about what I was reading and absorbing. I was always a very close reader and deep listener. I had three older sisters who were all into music so I was always immersed in it. I think a lot of it is instinct, but also having the confidence and the backbone to know what you like and to be able to articulate it. It’s funny you mentioned Catherine Taylor, because her work has been on my radar for so long as a critic, and when I knew that she had a book coming out, I was desperate to read it. I got an early proof and I literally rang up and went into every bookstore that I could and said, “Why do you not have this book?” That’s probably the bookseller in me, too. I interviewed Catherine for the Herald and found out all this amazing stuff about her, like her mother was best friends with Alan Preston, who started Unity Books. And I just thought, if people know about this, they’ll love it. 

I like to see my role as shining light on things that I know people will love but they might not hear about otherwise. 

You moved to Christchurch for the job as programme manager at WORD Christchurch. How was that shift for you? 

To be honest it was a culture shock because I’m a northerner. But I had always wanted to move to Lyttelton. When I was living in Wellington working at Unity Books I really needed a holiday. And a friend of mine – this is right when the big earthquake had happened, and there were still aftershocks – needed a house sitter for four weeks so I said I’d do it. So I came down to Lyttelton and it was literally rubble. The only places open were the fish and chip shop and some guys running a cafe in a carpark, I didn’t know anybody, and I was all alone. There were aftershocks constantly happening and sirens going off all the time. And, you know, it was just me in this big house with an ocicat and I fell in love with the place.

You weren’t… scared of the earthquakes? 

It didn’t feel post-earthquake. It felt quite real and present. I made all these new friends who totally embraced me into their community, and it’s so stunningly beautiful. Something about it really got under my skin. And I thought I would love to move to this community. But of course, there were no jobs for someone like me. I felt so unemployable. We are so specific.

My partner Nick and I ended up moving to Whanganui from Auckland, which was amazing. I thought I would be there for the rest of my life. But then Rachael King messaged me one day and said, “If I were ever to leave my job, would you be interested?”

And were you interested at that point even though you loved Whanganui so much? 

Yes because it was a job that I could do that brought all my different skills together: love of books and reading and writing, and contacts, and book trade knowledge. It’s like being a bookseller, programming a festival. The last job I had in bookselling was being a buyer for an independent bookshop, and when you’re the buyer you’re thinking about every audience, curating the best books from that specific genre and bringing them all together in one bookshop. 

I also realise now that I’m not scared of an opportunity or a challenge. I always take them.

One thing I always found hard about programming was knowing that there was always an element of exclusion as much as inclusion: we have so many writers and books but festival budgets are getting tighter and tighter. How do you manage that particular pain in the job? 

Representation is so important to me. I know what it’s like to feel like there’s no space for you. I’ve lived with that my whole life, so I understand the importance of giving people space. But there are so many people and we have so little money. There are many sacrifices and often a feeling of guilt attached to that. But it’s also about curation. People are quite surprised about WORD Christchurch: like we put on this world class festival that’s professional and well run, but on the daily, we’re a tiny team of three people working really hard together to make it all happen. 

I feel that festivals haven’t been particularly good at explaining how tiny the operations side of it is. 

Yes. It’d be the same for you, we’re always available and people reach out to us all the time… People wouldn’t realise too that in the South Island, we have the huge added cost of getting people down here.

But the lovely end of it is that you have just released this amazing, exciting, fresh programme. I want to go to everything. One artist that caught my eye was Kommi? Could you tell us about Kommi and how you discovered them?  

I kept hearing about Kommi before I came across his work. He’s a vocalist and performs exclusively in the Kai Tahu dialect and collaborates with Marlon Williams. His shows are really thrilling and dynamic. And music is so important to me, as it was to Rachael [King, previous director of WORD]. Music has always had a strong place at WORD because it’s storytelling. One thing I think is really cool about festivals is to be able to introduce people to new voices so they can find new favourites. 

WORD is very strong on thematic showcase events. Are those fun to create? 

So fun. One of the most fun parts of the job. That’s where you find the alchemy and magic of programming a festival.

I once had this funny convo with a programmer in Edinburgh who’d been asked by some posh journalist what her programming methodology was and my friend’s answer was, “It’s the vibes.” Hard relate. Do you, too? 

I do. It’s instinct!  

Which could be so easily derided right, like: eyeroll, vibes. But actually instinct is born of years and years of immersion. 

One hundred per cent. I could not have put that better. Instinct is something that is fed into you over years of immersion. I have immersed myself in this world. Reading is what I do! It’s a passion and always will be. Also as a writer I feel like you can’t write well if you’re not absorbing. You’ve got to have the input for the output.

Yes, so true. Time for a sucky question. What are your favourite sessions? Perhaps framed for someone who wouldn’t usually choose to go to a writers fest.

That’s a monstrous question, Claire! I’d say go to our Opening Words session, In the Frame, which would be a great taster because it’s multiple voices and a storytelling event. The prompt is “imagination as a form of courage”, which is a Janet Frame quote. My hope would be that people go to that and feel so fired up about seeing these speakers that they’ll go and check out other sessions they’re in.

I think Cabinet of Curiosities is a really cool session, because you never know what you’re going to get so there’s an element of surprise. It’s a really cool way to see people that we might already know, or think we know, as writers or performers, but in a totally different context, because they’re talking about a deep and weird obsession. Emily Perkins did one last year, and she is very, you know, poised and very literary, then she did her presentation on a fucking Billy Joel album. It was crack up, and so moving. An Emily we’d never seen before.

I wish I’d seen that. 

I really love to give people an experience. Whether that’s a sensory experience or something where they can immerse themselves and the environment around them. Our walking tours are fun for me to programme. One is on the plants of Ōtautahi. What an amazing way to get to know the environment that we’re in. Amy Head, who wrote the short story collection Signs of Life, is doing a walking tour based on some of the locations in the book which will show familiar spaces in a different way. This is all storytelling, but from a different angle.

That’s the thing about writers festivals, they’re not about the book as an object. They’re about the people behind them. 

That’s so beautiful and so true. There’s so much heart behind festivals. They’re places where people can come together. And in this world there’s so much turmoil and uncertainty and we often feel small. Festivals are one of the few places that give people space and a voice. For example we have Tusiata Avia’s Savage Coloniser Show which is a big deal and an honour because it’s the first time it will be performed in Christchurch. 

Yes, such a brilliant show. How do you see the festival in the context of Christchurch? What does the festival do for the city from your point of view? 

It’s that elevation of voices and the chance for people to come together and not feel isolated. And it’s a chance to see themselves too. I wish I’d had that when I was a teenager. I never saw myself. Actually, still don’t! But festivals are a positive and hopeful contribution to communities. 

I want people to know that this festival is for them. And by them I mean everybody. If you’ve never been to WORD Christchurch before, then welcome! Dive in! 

My last question! WORD is just one of your hats in this industry. You’re soon to be the editor of Kete, you regularly write reviews and profiles for a range of different publications, and I know that you’re also a brilliant writer. How do you fit it all in?

I’m a bit of a mad woman. I’m not very good at saying no, because I like to do it all, and find it hard to turn down an opportunity or a challenge. But, you know, I guess first and foremost, I am a writer, and weirdly, for so long I always felt so reluctant about calling myself a writer. Even though I did it for a living. I’ve had to really think about what that means. What am I saying about myself? I’m not a real writer? What does that mean? I think it’s a bit of imposter syndrome. 

But basically I’m just doing stuff all the time. For people like us, Claire, books and writing are our work, but they’re also our passion and things that we like to do when we’re not working. So those boundaries get a bit blurred. But it’s all very pleasurable.

WORD Christchurch takes place across August, with most events on between 27 August – 1 September, and The Savage Coloniser show running between 10 – 13 September.