Election 2023: Live updates from the final leaders’ debate

Hello, Stewart here, just settled down to catch the tail end of the weather. Isn’t Dan the Weatherman great? Could we get him involved in the election night coverage somehow?

Anyway – in just a few minutes time the two Chrises will be going head-to-head for the final time this side of polling day.

We’ll keep you up to date throughout the debate, which is a slightly shorter 60 minutes. For the real debate-heads, there’s a panel discussion at 8pm on TVNZ1 and we’ll have our Spinoff group analysis going live later on in the evening.

For now… grab the popcorn.

Not just a live studio audience tonight (no face-on view this time) but a pub audience. Sort of live a real life worm. Common sense anyone?

The first question is on trust and Christopher Luxon says he has “real world” leadership experience. “Trust is important,” says Luxon, who plans to follow through on this through delivering for New Zealanders. Plus ding ding: “mojo”!

Chris Hipkins says there is “no such thing as a perfect government” but he thinks people trust him more because he will own up to mistakes. “My pitch to voters is I will always be honest with voters,” he said. “You don’t earn people’s trust with a whole lot of slogans with no substance behind it”

According to Luxon, this has been a very “negative” campaign from the Labour Party, which Hipkins said wasn’t true.

I zoned out for a minute and we’ve suddenly switched to the so-called “tax swindle” by the National Party. But Luxon says it’s a “bottom line” commitment to deliver this. “Give us the mandate,” says Luxon, “so we can get things done for the New Zealand people”.

The W word has arrived early: Winston.

Christopher Luxon says it wasn’t a mistake to rule in Winston Peters so close to polling day.

“Real chaos would be you trying to deal with Winston Peters and David Seymour around the cabinet table,” said Chris Hipkins, with Luxon throwing back that Labour has lost five ministers this year alone.

Hipkins said he has a high standard for his ministers and threw a tough line back at Luxon, bringing Sam Uffindell into the debate. “People in glass houses shouldn’t throw stones – none of my MPs beat people up with a bed leg,” he said. Luxon was speechless.

But back to Winston Peters. Hipkins has reiterated that he won’t work with NZ First after this election, even if Peters is in the kingmaker position. Luxon said that wasn’t credible given Peters propped up Labour in 2017. “Been there, done that, got the t-shirt, wouldn’t do it again,” said Hipkins.

Chris Hipkins isn’t really letting Christopher Luxon get a word in so far. This is second debate Hipkins energy, with the first debate now a distant memory.

But to the substance, we’re talking the economy, and Hipkins says it’s “turning the corner”.

The Labour leader’s challenged Christopher Luxon over his pledge to secure a free trade deal with India early on his leadership. That’s a promise he won’t be able to fulfil, according to Hipkins, but Luxon said he has also had conversations with the Indian government and believes he needs to be aspirational.

On Luxon’s promise to add additional ministers, such as for space and mental health, Luxon said he wants those positions around the cabinet table. “I’m quite serious about it, we have to get into a growth mindset and the fact is the economy’s not growing,” said Luxon.

While Hipkins is continuing to butt in and interrupt Luxon, the National leader’s opting to stand back a bit more in this debate. He’s told Hipkins to “calm down” a few times now.

On quickfire questions, both leaders recommitted to fees free and to banning greyhound racing. Hipkins said he supported lowering the voting age to 16, while Luxon was happy keeping it at 18.

The leaders have been asked a question by a woman in the audience: “What are you actually going to do to eliminate poverty for all the families that are struggling?”

Chris Hipkins says that his government has lifted  “77,000 children out of poverty in the first six years… we’ve got more work to do in that area. I don’t want to see children living in poverty,” he said. Hipkins said he “won’t stop” until he has lifted every single child out of poverty.

In response, Christopher Luxon said that he wanted to build a stronger and better economy. Hipkins interjected and said that Luxon wants to cut benefits, which Luxon said was misinformation. “Under this government we’ve seen low unemployment and 60,000 more people on unemployment benefit,” said Luxon.

“We will increase benefits each and every year and link it to inflation.” National has promised to reverse a law change introduced in 2020 to increase benefits by the rate of wages, as wages usually rise faster than inflation.

Hipkins fired up at this, accusing Luxon of planning to cut benefits and referencing reports that 300 “mega landlords” would sweep up millions as a result of National’s proposed tax plan. “I think that shows your moral compass is entirely wrong,” said Hipkins.

Evoking Taylor Swift, Luxon said that Hipkins needed to “calm down” and let him answer a question. He said Hipkins was spreading misinformation.

Moving to food prices and inflation, Luxon received laughs from the studio audience after saying he spends about $60 a week on food. “I live alone in my Wellington apartment,” he said. Hipkins said he would spend $300 to $400.

Pipes. Not the sexiest of topics, speaking personally here, but an important one.

The leaders were asked what their parties would do about investing in sewage infrastructure. Luxon says his first action would be to repeal the government’s formerly named three waters legislation and send the responsibility back to councils.

Hipkins said that councils can’t solve this problem and his government’s affordable water reforms would help address the issues.

“What we have with our water infrastructure at the moment is completely unacceptable,” said Hipkins. “I’ve read your fiscal plan: there is nothing in there for water infrastructure.”

Luxon says it’ll be funded “in a different way”. He rejected the suggestion that water bills, notably in Auckland, would surge. “We are going to use the model we see in Australia,” he said, adding that he’d sit down with the mayor of Auckland to get a good deal for the biggest city.

The problem with infrastructure in New Zealand is that it gets “turned on, turned off” between successive governments, said Luxon. He said he’d hope to work across the aisle on big picture infrastructure issues.

One of my favourite parts of these debates is reading deeply into the choice of tie. The first debate saw Hipkins go for a murky reddy-purple number, but he’s stuck to the tried and true red in the second and third debates. Coincidence that his worst debate was when he opted for an off-red tie?

Luxon has gone blue every time, and I am consistently impressed by the knottage. Considering how much he likes making TikToks and Instagram ASMR videos, could he consider a tie tutorial? Just a thought for the ad break.

The first two debates felt long but the fact this is only 60 minutes means it’s ripped through at a cracking pace.

So let’s wrap things up.

The leaders were asked whether it was their responsibility to call out racism. Both said yes. “I reject racism in all its forms, I think this country is more divided than it has been,” said Luxon.

“I think we should and I have been on this campaign,” said Hipkins, who accused Luxon of using “race as a wedge”.

“I think we’ve got to bring New Zealand together,” said Luxon. “We are all one country… but actually we don’t pit landlords vs city folk, landlords vs tenants…”

Asked for any regrets, Luxon said no. He said he’s run a “very positive” campaign.

Hipkins said he regretted not challenging “National’s relentless negatively” from the beginning and particularly for not going even harder on the opposition’s tax plan.

The debate wrapped with a 30 second pitch from the two leaders. Hipkins said he acknowledged that when times were tough it was normal to look for change. But, he said, rolling out his tag line, “If Christopher Luxon wins, you lose.” Thousands of kids will be back in poverty under National, said Hipkins, who encouraged people to “vote your values and party vote Labour”.

Luxon, who had the final word, used his pitch to argue that it was time for change. “To get this change you need to choose it,” he said.

And that’s it. The debate has wrapped, we’ll have our full analysis on The Spinoff a little later in the evening.

There’s now just one day of the campaign to go and polls close at 7pm Saturday. Happy voting!