spinofflive
Jon Ronson’s Psychopath Night is in Wellington on November 26.
Jon Ronson’s Psychopath Night is in Wellington on November 26.

BooksNovember 21, 2024

‘Everything is becoming a culture war’: Jon Ronson on conspiracies and cycleways

Jon Ronson’s Psychopath Night is in Wellington on November 26.
Jon Ronson’s Psychopath Night is in Wellington on November 26.

Ahead of his appearance in Aotearoa, the acclaimed British journalist, podcaster and documentarian talks to Stewart Sowman-Lund about why people are still fascinated by the fringes.

The last place I would expect to find Jon Ronson is relaxing in the countryside. The iconic British journalist and writer is best known for immersing himself with fascinating but often deeply troubled people and yet, when we Zoom back in September, he looks truly peaceful sitting on the deck of his brand new home, a pilsner in hand. “I didn’t know if you wanted to see the inside of my spare room,” Ronson jokes, spinning his phone camera around. “Do you want the 360 degree? Can you see the pond? This morning, I was looking out the window and a deer ambled by. I’m really in the countryside.”

Ronson’s 30-year career has largely focused on people on the fringes of society, from conspiracy theorists, to neo-Nazis and extremists. It’s always pulled together by Ronson’s soft, almost sing-songy, narration and a genuine empathy and interest for the people he’s speaking to or about. He’s often ahead of the curve, too. Now, everyone has at least some knowledge of conspiracy theorists, but when Ronson was writing about them, they were in the shadows. Even his 2017 Audible series The Butterfly Effect, which is about the dark world of internet pornography and probably the best thing I’ve ever listened to, went in-depth on an issue that has since had overdue scrutiny.

Soon, Ronson will be pulled out of his cosy new home, where he has been holed up writing a new book, and brought back into the world of the dark and the depraved. Later this month, he’s bringing one his best known works, 2011’s The Psychopath Test, to life on stage in Wellington. Psychopath Night will see Ronson seek to answer, alongside special guests, whether psychopaths do indeed rule the world – and whether you could be one too. 

New Zealand has been on the bucket list for Ronson (along with Iceland), and he’s excited to finally tick us off. But as someone who spends a lot of time engaging with and dissecting so-called “culture wars”, I wonder if he’s aware of the issues bubbling away in our nation’s capital? Like, for instance, cycleways. “What are the battle lines,” inquires Ronson. “The literal meaning of a culture war is a conflict about conflicting values that don’t necessarily involve economics, but it does feel like seemingly everything is becoming a culture war. And, you know, we’re all being forced into these polarised positions. This is why I think all of this stuff is still important.”

He adds: “The tyranny of certainty – when did that become a weakness? When did not wanting to come down incredibly hard on one side of a debate become a weakness? That is the world we are living in.”

Culture wars are as common as conspiracies these days, but once again Ronson was early. “I feel a little bit like a Nirvana fan before Nevermind came out, I’m slightly irritated that everyone’s in on it now,” he laughs. “But also, it’s kind of saddening and shocking.” One of his best known works, So You’ve Been Publicly Shamed, examined so-called “cancel culture” and the role of social media through the eyes of people like Justine Sacco, the woman who infamously sent an offensive joke to her 170 Twitter followers before getting on a flight and landing to learn she had lost her job and was hated around the world. These types of battles are starting to become more commonplace. He cites Jordan Peterson, the meat-eating professor who blew up after becoming a culture warrior. “Only a few years ago [he] was giving young men good advice about cleaning up their rooms and sitting up straight and having self respect. Now [he’s] spreading 15-minute city conspiracy theories and he’s really symptomatic of an awful lot of people. 

“It sounds like it’s becoming part of the media over there in New Zealand as well.”

The (first) Trump presidency also brought shadowy figures and beliefs into the mainstream. Ronson recalls with astonishment a moment during the 2016 US presidential campaign when a news broadcast cut from a speech being given by Hillary Clinton to an empty room with a podium where Donald Trump would soon be. “That’s how obsessed everyone was,” he says. But it was on another occasion, while watching the news at the gym, that really made Ronson shudder. “[A journalist] said, ‘Mr. Trump, are you going to go back on the Alex Jones Show?’ And he went, ‘Alex Jones, nice guy’. I nearly fell off the elliptical thinking of all the people in my past who you know might have the ear of the president one day, I wouldn’t have chosen Alex.”

It was in 2001 that Ronson first spent time with Alex Jones, the Infowars broadcaster and prominent conspiracy theorist now best known for spreading false and harmful rumours at the Sandy Hook School massacre. The pair’s initial meeting seems low stakes by today’s standard, infiltrating a gathering of high profile leaders at the Bohemian Grove that Jones claimed was evidence of a “satanic shadowy elite”. Ronson praises Jones as a “talented broadcaster” and possibly the most “charismatic orator” he’s ever met – but also as someone who “just makes shit up”. He has a knack for observing the duality of people. It’s possibly why his work is frequently compared to fellow journalists like Louis Theroux. He would never, for example, go into an interview with the intention of “cornering” or grilling them. 

And while Ronson is willing to condemn and criticise the people he has interviewed for the harms they may have caused, he cautions those who would go into an interview with that express purpose. “What we need to avoid is going into situations for hierarchical reasons… That’s the pitfall. Don’t go into a situation because you think you’re better than them, and that you’re being a representative of righteous society mocking the irrational people,” he explains. 

“Don’t go into something with ideology, go into something with curiosity.” 

Jon Ronson’s Psychopath Night is November 26, The Opera House Wellington. Tickets available from Ticketmaster. 

Jacqueline Bublitz with her stack of bookish confessions. Image: Tina Tiller.
Jacqueline Bublitz with her stack of bookish confessions. Image: Tina Tiller.

BooksNovember 20, 2024

‘I’ll try any synonym under the sun’: Jacqueline Bublitz’s crimes against language

Jacqueline Bublitz with her stack of bookish confessions. Image: Tina Tiller.
Jacqueline Bublitz with her stack of bookish confessions. Image: Tina Tiller.

Welcome to The Spinoff Books Confessional, in which we get to know the reading habits of Aotearoa writers, and guests. This week: Jacqueline Bublitz, author of new crime novel Leave the Girls Behind.

The book I wish I’d written

I was so impressed by the big reveal in All the Colours of the Dark by Chris Whitaker. But it was also kind of painful, because I wish I’d thought of it myself. This is an occupational hazard when it comes to reading these days, although most of the time it’s a healthy kind of envy, because it inspires me to get going with my own work.

Everyone should read

Their Eyes Were Watching God by Zora Neale Hurston. This is a book I return to every few years, and I fall more in love with the protagonist, Janie Crawford, every time. The novel is considered a classic of the Harlem Renaissance era, and as a love story exploring race, identity, and gender roles, it’s still as resonant today. Hurston is an iconic personality, and a beautiful writer, and I’m so grateful I was introduced to her work when I was younger.

The book I want to be buried with

I want to be cremated, so I think I’d have to choose my own books. Cremate us together, so all those words I wrote return to where they came from. There’s a nice symmetry to that, in a macabre sort of way, don’t you think?

But if I was to be buried, I’d choose A Field Guide to Getting Lost by Rebecca Solnit. It’s a love letter to wandering off to find yourself. And one of the most beautiful books I’ve ever read.

From left to right: the book Jacqueline Bublitz wishes she’d written; the one she thinks we should all read; and the book she’d be buried with.

The first book I remember reading by myself

There was a book I inherited from my big sisters called Baby Island by Carol Ryrie Brink that I took so seriously as a little kid. Mary and Jean were young girls who got shipwrecked on a deserted island – with four infants. I used to pretend my bed was a small boat adrift at sea whenever I’d read it. I’d have my rations (i.e. my afternoon tea) and I’d pretend our dog, Lucky, was a baby stranded on the boat with me. That’s the first book I can remember truly loving, at least. And I still feel the lure of a deserted island to this day.

The book I pretend I’ve read

I’ve started A Little Life by Hanya Yanagihara at least five times. I always get around 100 pages in, before I put it down again. I can’t even say why, given how well-written and compelling the story is. I will get to the other 600 or so remaining pages one day and, until then, I just sort of smile and nod when people talk about how this book broke them into pieces. Given my reading tastes, it really doesn’t make sense that I still haven’t read beyond the beginning, so I never admit that I haven’t finished it yet. Well… until now.

It’s a crime against language to

Oh god, I have so many quirks when it comes to language. My dear friend Bruno is the keeper of my list of worst words. As in he has an actual list of words I cannot use, or hear, and do not like to read, and it’s long! Most of the words are related to euphemisms for body parts and for sex. I physically shudder when I read any of these words on the page … but I’m not going to share any of them here. Just know I’ll try any synonym under the sun before I’ll use the M-word in my own books (rhymes with hoist).

The book that made me cry

I read Betty by Cherokee author, Tiffany McDaniel, not long after my dad died. There are some moments about fathers, and girl-dads in particular, that are so deeply moving, I would have to go for a walk around the block between chapters, before I could keep reading. It’s such a treasure of a book, and it came to me at just the right time. I highly recommend reading this coming-of-age story – if you don’t mind the occasional Oprah-worthy ugly cry along the way.

The book character I never believed

I never got why Scarlett O’Hara (Gone with the Wind) was so fixated on Ashley Wilkes. I mean, really?! I was definitely a Rhett Butler stan as a 14-year-old. Now I understand that whole crew was problematic, but at the time, I was very invested in that triangle, and I couldn’t believe the choices Scarlett kept making. Some trivia: Ash in my first novel is named for Mr. Wilkes, as a throwback to this early obsession with bad decisions.

The book I wish would be adapted for film or TV

When I read books, I don’t really see the characters (I’m one of those people who can’t form pictures in their mind). But I’m going to choose the recently released Rapture by Emily Maguire, because it’s such an evocative book, and there are some truly great sex scenes that I wouldn’t mind seeing set to sweeping music. As to who I’d like to see in those scenes, most of the actors I love are at least 80 now, or dead. Maybe Florence Pugh and Paul Mescal. They’re both so good in everything they do.

The most underrated book

Last One at the Party by Bethany Clift is a novel about a woman who may be the lone survivor of a global pandemic. It was released during Covid times, when there wasn’t exactly an appetite for this kind of story, which is a real shame, because it’s just brilliant. Funny, poignant, and very clever. I have no doubt this book will eventually find her audience, though. Everyone I’ve recommended it to has loved it.

From left to right: Jacqueline Bublitz’s pick for most underrated book; the book she wishes would be adapted for film or TV; and her own latest release.

Greatest New Zealand writer

To me, one of the greatest New Zealand writers, and certainly one of the nicest, is my fellow New Plymouth resident David Hill (CNZM). Authors who engage young readers are my absolute heroes. And I’ve been lucky enough to spend some time talking shop with David these past few years. He’s so generous and supportive of up-and-comers like me. We are very lucky to have him.

Best food memory from a book

This one is easy: I’ve been obsessed with Turkish Delight ever since the White Witch lured Edmund with a box of it in The Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe. I was seven or eight when I first read that book, and I remember that when I had my first Fry’s pink and gold wrapped Turkish Delight bar, I immediately understood why Edmund kept coming back for more. This is a core memory from my childhood (which might have been altered if I’d tried the authentic version… or understood more about the symbolism, at the time).

Best place to read

I’ve always loved reading on planes. There’s nothing better than hearing the pilot announce your descent, and you haven’t even noticed how much time has passed, because you’ve been so immersed in a book. I love seeing what other people on my flight are reading too. The dream is to see someone with one of my own books and I’ll keep awkwardly peering across the aisle until that happens.

What are you reading right now

I’m reading around seven books at once, including All Fours by Miranda July, Kataraina by Becky Manawatu, and Sewing Moonlight by Kyle Mewburn. Because I’m in the thick of research for my next book, I don’t get a lot of time to read fiction at the moment, hence the multi-tasking when it comes to my TBR pile. There are just so many good stories out there, especially from local writers, and I sometimes wish I could just put my finger on a cover, to absorb the whole book at once. I need more time – but don’t we all.

Leave the Girls Behind by Jacqueline Bublitz ($38, Allen & Unwin) is available to purchase through Unity Books.