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ATEEDOctober 26, 2016

On the Grid: Weirdly don’t care about your $500 CV

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There’s a revolution underway. Deep within the Auckland Viaduct lurks the beginnings of our own tiny Silicon Valley. At GridAKL, more than 50 startups, in industries as diverse as medicine, robotics and augmented reality, are running the entrepreneurial gauntlet looking to build a high-growth business – or at least a get a second funding round.

In On the Grid, a sponsored series with Auckland Tourism, Events and Economic Development (ATEED), we tell their stories. In this, the third instalment, recruitment revolutionaries Weirdly. 

If your average CV is anything to go by, New Zealand is a nation of team players with great time management, a good work ethic, a willingness to learn and an optimistic, self-reliant attitude. Just like everywhere else on Earth. Because aside from a list of qualifications, what else does a CV really tell an employer? That their potential employee owns a thesaurus, and knows synonyms for “good”? What about their values, their ambitions, the reason they want a job or the direction they’re heading in life? Enter Weirdly.

Weirdly is a piece of HR tech which puts culture and value alignment at the beginning of the recruitment process, rather than at the end. Through a series of bespoke questionnaires, Weirdly filters employees by purpose and alignment, rather than simply qualifications. Thus employers find staff who actually want to be at work, who are happy and fulfilled. The end result: more profits, happier workplaces and better retention of every companies most valuable asset – good people.

Or at least that’s co-founder Dale Clareburt’s theory, and with two decades of traditional recruitment experience, as well as a burgeoning portfolio of Weirdly clients, including Jucy Rentals and Air New Zealand, it’s a theory founded in practical success.

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The Spinoff: The recruitment process is nothing new – people have been getting jobs for a long time. How did you identify an opening in the market for your product?

Dale Clareburt: I have 20 years in traditional recruitment, particularly in agency recruitment. What myself and the founder team found when we looked at it was that the whole recruitment process is broken. As it stands, a candidate applies for a job and the organisation looks at their CV, then puts them through this really rigorous process before they know anything about the employee. They haven’t spoken to them, they don’t know if they want the job, they don’t know if all the criteria has been met. They use that data to start screening. What we realised is that’s the problem: the process is broken. It’s dumb and it hasn’t been changed in 25 years, or 50 years or whatever.

A lot of the businesses that we were working with were telling us that getting the right person is really important, that getting the right culture fit is as important, if not more important, than the skills and experience. They would tell us “we would rather have someone who only had about 60% of the skills and experience but was 100% a culture fit than the other way around,” because it destroys their business, it destroys their team, it reduces productivity and it’s not fun.

Was that something that you were moving towards in your role in traditional recruitment as well, were you trying to offer a boutique experience?

I worked for a large recruitment agency that’s quite traditional, and then I started up my own. It’s only small, and I still have it today – I want to be really cautious of using ‘I’ all the time, because there is a team of us at Weirdly – but my background is in that area.

I was working with small New Zealand businesses, and the reason I left the big business was because I was finding that it was all about market share and margin and driving down costs. But the lower the cost, the harder it is to deliver a really good quality service and so the personality and the customisable approach just disappears. I removed myself from that, went into businesses and learned all about them. I would immerse myself in there, hang out with them, find out what the culture means, and ask questions of a cross-section of people. You know, don’t just ask the hiring manager, don’t just ask the recruiter, ask the people who are in those roles. I was doing this process naturally.

The first customer we ever had was Jucy Rentals. Tim Alpe said “why can you fit people to my business, when sometimes I get it wrong?” I said “I’ve been doing this forever, like 20 years, and I know how to match people.” Because I ask them these kinds of questions, ones that aren’t related to the job. I can assess someone’s skill level and experience really rapidly, but finding out who they really are – getting them to take their interview uniform off and to be their true and authentic self, which is ultimately what all these organisations want – takes different kinds of questions.

It’s funny you say that, because I find with interviewing in a journalistic capacity, you have to get past these initial media prepared statements, particularly with athletes and people that are primed for interviewing, and then you get the actual person. The traditional recruitment process doesn’t cater to that at all. Nobody is more guarded than someone in a job interview.

Writing a CV, and we forget this as recruiters, is a black hole of time. You pay someone $500-$1000 to write your CV, it looks the same as everyone else, and they just all say the same stuff. There’s nothing that makes you pop out, and we don’t give people the opportunity to do that because we keep asking the same stuff. Weirdly changes that.

How did you initially design your questionnaire?

Businesses were telling us there was this problem in recruitment and I was solving it in a manual way with my experience. I was thinking “How can we get that experience into something that’s a product?”. I met these really great people, two of the other founders, at a digital innovation agency [and they] didn’t know anything about recruitment. And so, having that objectivity and that way of looking at the problem, they were able to solve it and turn it into a product. We worked with survey experts, got information on how best to ask questions, how many questions were on every page and that kind of stuff, but equally we used my experience and started there. Since then we’ve developed data science and got organisations’ psychologists involved, but we started with that 20 years of experience and knowing the right answers.

Weirdly founder Dale Clareburt
Weirdly founder Dale Clareburt. Photo: Rebecca Zephyr Thomas

The questions that you ask aren’t traditional recruitment questions. Were you taking input from fields like psychology and so on?

That and experience. You would have heard over the years about companies like Google that ask some quite crazy questions, and those questions are things like ‘Why is an orange orange?” or “How many golf balls are sold in the state of Arizona?” The thing is not what the right answer is, but how they come to that answer and what their thought process is and what their reaction is to being asked that question. Not all those organisations use those sort of questions, ours are a bit different to that, but there is experience involved.

And mainly it’s volume. I’ve interviewed tens and tens of thousands of people and I’ve learned what works. I’ve learned how to ask questions to get people to be themselves.

How many iterations did you go through before you decided on a formula that was the most efficient?

We do bespoke questionnaires, so we have a subset that has been tested. We’ve got about 75 questions that have been tested, that are around key attributes that people can use off the shelf, but by far and above that we go into organisations and create bespoke ones. We do that by finding out what their values are, what those values look like as behaviours – what does good look like? – so what we’re looking for when we create these questions is that we want people to really show us their uniqueness.

A lot of people have similar values. They use the same words, like “don’t be a dick” or “honesty” or “courage” but what that feels like, and what they mean by that, is different in every organisation. That’s why we’re called Weirdly, because we’re about finding that weirdness and matching it with somebody else’s.

So we go through that process, workshop it, and from there we’re able to develop questions.

How do you teach yourself to ask better questions? People might use the same words but the feeling is different, their values don’t align exactly.

The reason they pay us to do this service for them is that they recognise that they have a challenge that they are wanting to solve, or a culture value they want to emphasise, or they want to compete in the talent shortage market that’s out there, and they’re looking for a product to help them do that. Our product is a competitive advantage.

What challenges did you face in convincing businesses to utilise your product rather than a traditional recruitment company?

Our challenges were that we were additional to the process originally. We weren’t replacing it, so if they had a budget, this was additional to that. If they had a process that was taking them this much time, we were adding a little bit initially. Then what happens over time is that we then save them time and money in other areas. If you spend a little more time and effort at the front end, you save all this time later. You get better retention rates, you get people who get up to speed and fit into your business faster so you get increased productivity. Once we had those case studies we were able to use that to sell and get us past those challenges.

It seems as though it’s a service perfect for a smaller startup where culture is so essential. Did you find it more difficult to convince larger clients like Air New Zealand, who employ thousands of people, and already have these giant cogs in motion?

What’s been really interesting is that we’ve ended up pivoting. We love working with SMEs and startups – it’s really fun, you can see our business effecting change a lot faster. With Air New Zealand and companies like them, it’s just a longer sales process. They understand the need, and their reasons aren’t just about getting the right culture in, although that’s one of them, but it’s about improving the candidate experience. A company like them attracts thousands of CVs a year, and it’s a desirable brand and it’s high performance, so what we need to help them to do is to make sure that the people they’re getting in are aligned with their values. They know that they need to do that, and it’s just about fitting into their sales cycle. That’s been the difference. What we’ve found with SMEs and startups if that they often don’t actually have the money.

Female founders and CEOs in the start-up space are are much more rare than male. Does being a woman inform the way you conduct your business, marketing or strategy?

Half of our four founders are women, and recruitment and HR is a female-dominated industry. That’s what my background was, and only since I’ve started in the tech space have I realised that it’s actually the complete opposite. From a marketing perspective, there have been a lot of advantages because there’s a push for diversity in New Zealand, as well as countries all around the world, wanting to increase the number of women in top positions. In specific industries like tech we’ve got an advantage because of that.

But as far as our marketing and so on, I don’t know. Initially I hadn’t felt what it’s like to be a minority in an environment or industry, I’d always been on the other side. In the last few years, and especially the last six months, it’s become more and more evident to me as we continue to grow and get into bigger circles and into a bigger ecosystem that I realise that we are unusual in the way that we’re set up. There are a lot of investment, VC’s and investors, that are particularly wanting to invest in companies with female founders. The timing has been really good for us to leverage that.

Aside from ticking diversity boxes, are there advantages that you bring to the table in terms of organisational ability?

I don’t know, is that saying that men and women have different skill sets?

Not necessarily, but maybe experiences you’ve had in your previous line of work has informed the way you conduct yourself.

Yea, I don’t know if that’s just because I’m a female though. I used to be the COO for a large recruitment agency in New Zealand, and all the skills and experience I’ve had in that space certainly helps me. Also I’m considered mature to be in a start-up; my team is not quite as old as I am. But it has really helped with credibility. When you go into meetings and large corporate organisations, it’s really beneficial to come in with the kind of experience I’ve had running businesses. I can feel their pain because I’ve had it, and I think that sometimes startups find that if they haven’t had that experience or depth of experience it can be hard to go in and sell to other businesses.

The word “startup” typically connotes a young dude in Chuck Taylors in a basement. Do you find an advantage in subverting that stereotype?

I do. I do. The only time when I feel like I don’t… that we stand out a little in that respect, is when I’m in the ecosystem, when I’m attending events with other startups and entrepreneurs. But I think New Zealand is lucky. I’ve gone all over the world travelling as a startup and New Zealand interestingly enough has quite a mature startup age here. But really I don’t think about it that much.

A Weirdly desk. Photo: Rebecca Zephyr Thomas
A Weirdly desk. Photo: Rebecca Zephyr Thomas

Speaking of the environment, how has utilising a space like GridAKL informed the direction you’ve taken? Has it impacted the product, your marketing, sales strategies?

It’s impacted heaps. The reason we came into this environment is that when you’re starting on your own it’s… we were in this other office which was with one other business, and it was very quiet. We’re a startup, so we need to be doing everything, growing rapidly in every way. We need to develop, immediately, a sales department, a marketing department, a product department, customer service. It’s not like you can do one thing and grow from there. You need to be in an environment that can support that.

Plus for me, I’m a sales person, an extreme extrovert. I speak and I need to get all my energy from that. Sitting in an environment with just developers wasn’t working for me.

I can’t imagine why.

They were just like “oh my god, you’re messing with my flow!’”But then we came in here, and what happens when you’re in a startup is that you’re learning everything. You’ve never done any of it before. You think you have, but you haven’t. So being immersed in an environment like this, where people are either just ahead or just behind you, or experiencing exactly the same phase of business that you’re in is so valuable. That’s what this environment has offered us. To be fair, we’re incredibly collaborative and we look for help, but we also give help. And that’s why I talk about the people behind us. We can also help and give them advice. It’s crazy when you think, you’ve been doing this for two and a half years and you have enough knowledge to help someone who’s only a year in. And then you’ve got people who are just a year ahead of you and they’ve made mistakes or have tips that can help you go that much faster. In an environment on your own, you don’t have any of that.

How does that effect your attitude in regards to coming into work?

When I used to work at a recruitment agency we all had to wear suits, and we all had to carry clipboards, and it’s just a joke. I was very successful and I was very lucky, but we would be walking up and down Queen Street like storm troopers, with our heels and we all had to dress up and all of that, and that was hard. You come in to this environment, and some people wear suits because they’re meeting a client, but some people are wearing caps, some people are wearing jandals Some people don’t even wear shoes. There’s life and dogs and we’ve got all sorts of gear. It’s happening, and it feels like an ecosystem as opposed to one business with one culture and one set of values.

That’s advantageous in the sense that your product also fits into an ecosystem.

It does. There are lots of people here who could even be potential customers of ours. BizDojo are a customer, for example. You get to be in an ecosystem and a community where they can give you feedback and you can do something about that. The barrier you can get between a customer and myself is removed, because we’re sitting right next to each other. They can say “oh this didn’t work, you can tweak your product this way,” and that feedback is really great. We’ve had a number of people use those services.

Where do you see Weirdly two and a half years from now?

We’ll be in at least two different markets – we’re in the process of pushing into the States, we started in January. The intention is that I’ll be transferring there next year. We’re in a raise right now, trying to raise money in New Zealand, which is super challenging.

There’s not a lot of it here, right?

I think there is a lot of money here. It’s just the attitude towards that money, but if you can find the right people there’s some magic money here. But finding those people is super, super hard. The understanding of angel investment in New Zealand is not the same as overseas. You need to take more risks, and as a result of that, there’s a little bit of lost opportunity and people like us have to look to get money overseas, and that means that growth and opportunity is going to happen outside of New Zealand.

But in two and half years we’ll be in the States and one other market. Australia we’re bypassing because it’s been slow – there’s slow decision making and it’s quite late to adopt new technology – but we’ve got some big stuff. It’ll probably be Europe, the UK. Everyone is talking to us about Asia but our obvious problem there is language. We’re going for English-speaking countries first.

How has your own hiring process changed?

We absolutely use our product to do all of our recruitment. We had so much fun creating our own quiz, and that’s the wonderful thing about it. We can say we’re using it, and of course we are, I hope everyone uses their own tools, but the thing is that it’s actually made a difference. It’s actually been really cool for people who don’t have a recruitment background to learn about what the impact, what the value is of our own product.

The product is a cooler way of doing something that I used to do manually. It’s taken quite a few steps further. We had our product manager, our product founder, he looked back at some of the questions [one of our] employees had answered, and it makes so much sense to him now. That employee is actually like the way his quiz indicated he is.


GridAKL is Auckland’s innovation precinct, located in Wynyard Quarter – powered by ATEED and run by BizDojo. New spaces are leasing soon – click here to find out more.

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ATEEDOctober 20, 2016

On the Grid: Mindreading for the greater good with Thought-Wired

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There’s a revolution underway. Deep within the Auckland Viaduct lurks the beginnings of our own tiny Silicon Valley. At GridAKL, more than 50 startups, in industries as diverse as medicine, robotics and augmented reality, are running the entrepreneurial gauntlet looking to build a high-growth business – or at least a get a second funding round.

In On the Grid, a sponsored series with Auckland Tourism, Events and Economic Development (ATEED), we tell their stories. In this, the second instalment, brain-reading software developers Thought Wired.

It’s easy to forget among the fears of big data and the death of attention that technology is actually an incredibly powerful force for good. From prosthetic limbs to anesthesia, technology has always made life easier for those who suffer. Now, with the help of New Zealand entrepreneurs, it’s giving a voice to those without their own.

Thought Wired, an Auckland-based startup, design software with which to bridge the gap between brain activity and communication. Harvesting the patterns of thought, their software Nous interprets brain data collected via a simple headset and provides tactile visual or audible feedback, allowing complex interactions with existing platforms like Facebook and onwards out into the world

Founder and CEO Dmitri Selitskiy is one of those most rare of capitalists – he genuinely wants to help people, starting with the ones nearest to him. We spoke at the GridAKL tech cafe one Tuesday afternoon last month.

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The Spinoff: How did you identify an opening in the market for a product that’s almost like something out of science-fiction?

Dmitri Selitskiy: It wasn’t so much about looking and thinking ‘well what doesn’t exist?’, it was more out of necessity and directly seeing the need. I have a younger cousin who is paralysed and, because of his condition, none of the existing solutions really worked for him. None of the technology that requires physical interaction worked for him, even stuff that’s specialised. Six years ago I saw a demo online of a device that allowed you to translate brain activity into actions on a screen, moving a box and so on, so I just connected the two things together and started looking into it. I saw that there were these devices that you could buy, but you needed to build software to make them actually useful and to actually do these things. Still to this day there is no solution that’s commercially available that does what we’re trying to do.

Obviously there are commercial advantages to being first in the area, but what about challenges?

There are two equally significant challenges. On one hand, technology, actually making the thing work, because no one has figured it out. It’s not like creating a new app that does something slightly differently, it’s a completely new way of interacting with things. Everything from what happens in the person’s brain to how you present things on the screen or through audio, and then ten steps in between, it all needed to be figured out. It’s a massive technical and scientific challenge.

And then on the other hand commercially, especially when we were just starting out, especially here in New Zealand nobody had even heard of technology like this. Most people were like ‘no, it sounds crazy, it’s impossible and if it is possible it’s going to take 100’s of people and millions of dollars’. When it came to figuring out the commercial aspects of it, people would just say ‘no, too hard, too complicated, don’t wanna touch it.’

But all the while we’d get heaps of encouragement because of what we were trying to do, so you end up in the middle between these two disconnected paths of what you’re hearing. One is like lots of people going ‘what you’re doing is awesome, it’s going to help so many people’, but on the other hand ‘that sounds way too hard, impossible even.’

What gave you the confidence to think it even would be possible?

In the very beginning? Because it was something I didn’t have any experience in. I didn’t have experience in any of this, I just fell into it because I saw the tech and how it could be applied, but I didn’t know much about it. Not knowing and being overly confident and ambitious was helpful. It was like ‘yea, how hard could it be?’

Once we came together we very early on figured out that we were all passionate about not just building tech but actually specifically working in this space and creating accessibility tools. Trying to make a difference to people with disabilities. That was the big driver and as we went along we could see that it was possible, and that we were making progress. Even when we had to do some of the biggest challenges technologically, just spending a couple of hours with someone who is a potential user , seeing what problems they have, and the potential for what we’re building was like, ‘wow, it’s still worth it.’

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Thought Wired’s Sarvnaz Taherian, James Pau and Dmitry Selitskiy look seriously at a backlit keyboard.

Most of your team are alumni of the University of Auckland. Are there advantages to being from the same institution and programs?

Either initially or at some point. When we were starting out I was still studying as was my father. We were both at the business school doing different degrees. Then when we got a little bit more serious and took on an engineer, he was doing his PhD in the engineering school. Our fourth co founder was originally from Massey, but when we started she actually enrolled in a psychology PhD at Auckland, working on some of the aspects of what we were building.

Over time as we were doing things we realised that we wanted to do it differently compared to how academia in general does things. It reinforced that trying to do it independently and as a company was the best way forward. Motivation for doing things is different in academia, and time scales are different, especially for things getting out from the lab to the real world applications. And so I guess in that sense being in academia, in different phases of academia, kind of helped us to see that.

Obviously you have this shared motivation of wanting to help people with disabilities, but were you all on the same footing in terms of ethical concerns around profiting off the disabled and so on? Did you share values and direction?

Yea, and actually all of those sort of motivations, all the team dynamics stuff, we figured out quite early on. We did what used to be called the Spark entrepreneurial challenge, now Velocity, at Auckland University, it’s a business planning competition. We came second in that year’s competition and off the back of it spent some time at the Icehouse. The very first thing they did with us there was to figure out this team dynamic and the motivations of all the people in the founding team. We kind of unpacked it and figured out what was important: were we after making millions and billions of dollars, or was it because of the purpose of what we were trying to build?

We also understood that doing this as a for-profit company is probably the best way, and that we can prove that over time. Later on we went through a social enterprise accelerator, and through that we learned that there is actually a way of combining social impact with having a sustainable and profitable enterprise, and how the two can work together. That was really helpful to put frameworks around that, and drive that forward.

How did those discussions take place? Did you just sit around with a coffee and hash it out?

Pretty much, and at the time it was very unusual and weird. We were all just 25 or something, with the exception of my dad, and after working with each other for just a month or two, it was really strange. But looking back it was probably one of the most important things that we did, figuring out what’s important to each of us, questions around ‘what would success mean to you in five years,’ and things like that. So yea, it was kind of about talking through that stuff, writing some of it down, and really it wasn’t even so much coming up with answers but the process of talking through that was the helpful bit.

Those aren’t exactly natural conversations. They’re big questions.

They’re foundational things, even as fundamental as ‘ok, what are we trying to build?’ and ‘how are we going to make money?’ and ‘ok, why are we doing it?’, ‘how are you going to split the shares in this company?’ and even ‘why are we doing this?’

It’s about talking through those sorts of questions, and doing it early enough that you can have these open and honest conversations. Because we were guided through that process it seemed almost natural, and we don’t even think about doing it differently now. But then there are others who haven’t done that and ran into all kinds of problems later on.

Some of those questions and motivations are particularly important when you have people with disabilities involved, right? You’ve gotta take their rights into consideration. It’s much more sensitive than if you were just building an app for fast food curation.

Yes, but because we had that shared understanding of what we were doing and why, it was pretty much already part of all of those conversations. If not explicitly, then it was at least in the back of our minds. Once we figured out that we were all on the same page, it’s been a guiding principle, of course, in what we do. How we build stuff, what we do commercially, how we raise capital and from whom – all that sort of stuff. It’s just about keeping that in the front of our minds as the team is growing and, as we bring people on board, communicating those principles and making sure that anyone who joins us, in any capacity, shares that.

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Thought Wired’s James Pau, Dmitry Selitskiy and Sarvnaz Taherian

It seems to me that the big dream in the start-up world is to be the next Zuck, super famous, with a trillion dollars, motivated purely by capitalistic reasons. What does it change when you bring on this social responsibility?

It goes back to the same thing. For us it’s never been about building this up quickly and then selling it, making lots of money or whatever. It’s really…every time we’ve hit major roadblocks and we’ve looked at why we’re doing it, how can we change things, the decision has always come back to asking ‘if we change our approach, will it still line up to why we’re doing this?’

Along that path we tried slightly different things, trying to stay afloat and whatnot, and we’ve always just circled back later on and said ‘actually, it doesn’t necessarily line up with why we came together and started working on this, so let’s reevaluate and get back to what’s important’.

We’ve never had any massive arguments or disagreements around it, because everyone on the team came on with that shared understanding, and then we made sure that it was shared through those early conversations.

Are there advantages in terms of motivation? You have the knowledge that you’re helping people, directly changing their lives, and you can see the results of that even when you’re testing and the product has yet to hit the market.

Yea, there is. Every time we interact with people from the community who we’re testing the product with and getting input from that’s always a massive motivational boost, because yea, we just see why it’s important. And it’s almost like a natural filter for attracting the right kind of people to work with as well. We’ve seen that happen a number of times with people who join us along the way, either as advisors or mentors or contributors or contractors. Certain types of people gravitate to the purpose that we have, and then why we’re doing things.

At the same time it filters out people who have different kinds of motivations. Sometimes we have to be very explicit. People have approached us and said, ‘why don’t you, instead of doing this, go into gaming and entertainment and create a gaming product that could earn lots of money, and then you can come back and do what you’re trying to do?’, or a similar sort of discussion in an investment context, and it just comes back to that original motivation.

We actually believe in this, and we have proof that we can do it the way that we’re doing it.

As the CEO, how does an initiative like GRIDAkl make your job easier?

Many different ways. Probably the biggest is that it’s the hub of many different networks, and so making introductions whether it’s along the funding route or just telling the world we exist and what we’re doing, connecting us into different communities. And then more specifically around some of the initiatives that they’re involved in. We took part in one of the pitching competitions here. They highlighted several opportunities like that for us. Extending this network and doing introductions to people and organisations, that’s been massive for us.

More personally as a founder and CEO I found that having that network of other founders that you can share your experiences with, both positive and negative, which is often a lot harder and a lot of people don’t really talk about it, but it’s one of the big things that helped me and our team through the process. We’ve had some huge challenges technically and looking back, we’ve talked about it, if we weren’t going through that project with the support of mentors, advisors and other ventures going through the same process, we’re not even sure if we’d have survived that as a company at that particular time. So definitely doing it together with other people, even though they might be working on something different, just having that wider community of startups is huge. And it’s not even about the practical things like introductions or whatever, but really just even sitting down and talking about how crap your day or week or month has been, and knowing that ‘hey, it’s not just us, other people go through super hard stuff as well.’

When you read stuff in blogs or press or whatever, essentially you see the highlight reel of everyone else while living your own blooper reel, and you forget about that. But when you’re in this tightly-knit network, you get to see that it’s not just all big wins and successes, it’s actually…everyone else goes through hard stuff as well, it’s just super helpful to have that and see that, and even better when you share it with others.

But it’s exciting, and it’s worth it, because on the very long timescale we really see a potential for our technology to become a platform for the way everyone and anyone interacts and communicates through natural interfaces like the brain, as well as other ways that we have only read and seen in science fiction so far.


GridAKL is Auckland’s innovation precinct, located in Wynyard Quarter – powered by ATEED and run by BizDojo. New spaces are leasing soon – click here to find out more.

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