Grant Robertson at the Basin Reserve, Wellington. Photograph: The Spinoff
Grant Robertson at the Basin Reserve, Wellington. Photograph: The Spinoff

InterviewsFebruary 17, 2016

‘I’m a cross between Kane Williamson and Ross Taylor’ – an interview with Labour’s Mr Nearly, Grant Robertson

Grant Robertson at the Basin Reserve, Wellington. Photograph: The Spinoff
Grant Robertson at the Basin Reserve, Wellington. Photograph: The Spinoff

The Spinoff meets Grant Robertson at the cricket to talk leadership close-miss, caucus divisions on the TPP, the future of work and waffle, and whether John Key is brilliant or Labour just plain useless.

In the 2014 Labour leadership race, Grant Robertson was a whisker – one percentage point – from victory. He was comfortably ahead in the caucus part of the vote, and also led among party members, but Andrew Little came through largely thanks to support from union affiliates. In the 2013 race (won by David Cunliffe), Robertson was also the most popular among fellow MPs – until recently the sole selectors of party leader.

Having twice missed out, Robertson announced he would not be seeking the leadership again. Appointed finance spokesman, Robertson has devoted much of his attention to a new “Future of Work Commission”, which has attracted plenty of mockery from the Government, which could mean Labour are on to something, or simply that it’s eminently mockable.

As part of its own contribution to exploring the changing idea of “work”, The Spinoff travelled to Wellington and the world’s greatest cricket ground, the Basin Reserve, to interview the sport-tragic politician.

At lunchtime on Day One of the first Test against Australia last Friday, after a bad start for New Zealand on a green wicket, we found a quiet spot around the back of the Basin Reserve’s earthquake-mothballed Museum Stand, alongside the shabby old net where Ross Taylor was facing a few throwdowns.

Accompanied by the gentle thud of willow and a wall of sound from cicadas in the Pohutukawas above, Robertson addressed that leadership close-miss, Labour’s low point, caucus divisions on the TPP, the future of work and waffle, and whether John Key is brilliant or Labour just plain useless.

Grant Robertson at the Basin Reserve, Wellington. Photograph: The Spinoff
Grant Robertson at the Basin Reserve, Wellington. Photograph: The Spinoff

The Spinoff: You wrote this morning on Public Address about Brendon McCullum.

Grant Robertson: I did.

And you’re a cricket fan.

I am.

Who then are you in the Black Caps line-up, bearing in mind that we’re five down for fuck-all right at the moment?

I’d like to think I’m a cross between Kane Williamson and Ross Taylor. I’m here to steady the ship. But I’ve been around for a while now, got a few games under my belt. There to do the hard work in the middle order.

Are you then Ross Taylor, the one who was wronged in seeking the leadership, or are you Kane Williamson, the one who’s going to be the leader?

Neither probably. No. I think Ross is in some of the best cricketing form of his life now that he’s not the captain, and maybe that’s the message for me.

Is it, though? Can you envisage a circumstance in which you would end up leader?

No, not at the moment, I can’t. I think Andrew’s doing a really good job. He will definitely be taking us to the 2017 election and I think we’ve got a really good chance of winning that. And he will become the Prime Minister and I’ll be very happy to be there. So, no, at the moment I can’t envisage a situation where I would be the leader.

I don’t want to go on about this …

But you are.

Well, we’ve barely begun. This is just the first over. Under the old rules, you’d have been comfortably appointed leader of the Labour Party. Do you think about that sometimes when you reflect on life?

I think in the immediate aftermath of losing the leadership I did think about that. I think it’s only natural – in anything in life, when you get very close to achieving a goal or winning something, you think about why you didn’t. I mean if I’d been beaten by 20% or something I probably wouldn’t have. But, yeah, I spent a bit of time doing that, but I’m past that now, and I certainly feel, starting off 2016, I feel in a very different headspace than I did in that period immediately after the leadership [contest]. I think it’s natural, when you get close, and you don’t achieve something, to think of what might have been. But you can’t afford to dwell on it for long.

This week, the first week back in Parliament, John Key began by saying TPP for Labour stands for the “two position party”. And he’s right, isn’t he? He’s unequivocally right: there are two positions in the Labour caucus on the TPP.

No. Like any issue, controversial or otherwise, we have one position, and that’s the position the caucus decides. Yes, there are people in the caucus with different views on the TPP, and on any number of other issues. It’s the nature of being a broad, social democratic party like Labour. But we’ve got one position. It’s the position Andrew has articulated – we can’t support the TPP as it stands – and everybody is aware of Phil Goff’s views, and David Shearer has made some comments as well, but we’ve come to a position as a caucus. That’s what political parties do.

Was it a tense process? Were there some heated meetings?

There were some difficult discussions, definitely. As I say, that’s the nature of a party like Labour, because we are a broad church governing party, a party that wants to be in government. The other reason why I think the conversations were difficult is because we are a party that’s supported free trade. And I do support the quality free trade agreements we’ve been able to negotiate.

What’s made this decision and this positioning particularly hard for us is because this is not like an old free-trade agreement. It is a much more intrusive agreement, behind the border, into how we regulate, into how we make policy, and that makes it a different thing. So I think that’s been a tough conversation for Labour, because we are still in favour of free trade, but we’re against this agreement, and that is difficult for some people to be able to understand.

You’ve got a big year ahead, obviously, leading into 2017. Do you feel as though you need to start landing a few more blows on Bill English over the economy?

I think it’s one of my responsibilities to do that, yes, to hold the Government to account. And I do feel I was able to do some of that last year, in terms of their fake surplus, and some of the issues around things like KiwiSaver and so on, but, yeah, it’s one of my responsibilities. The Government is really past the point where it can continually use the “what happened under Labour” excuse – I think they’ve been past that point for a long time.

I think 2016 is going to be a very difficult year for New Zealand in an economic sense, and I think the Government does need to step up in those circumstances and explain to the country what it is going to help mitigate against what is going on in the world.

The big splash from Labour so far is the three-free-years tertiary education policy. There have been comparisons drawn with the 2005 Labour policy to scrap interest on student loans, which is widely credited as having been your brainchild. Was this your idea, too?

I was part of this, absolutely. But like all good ideas there’s no one parent, and there are a lot of people involved. Actually one of the real impetuses for this policy has been that future of work project that we’ve been doing, and in the discussions that we’ve been having with businesses, with employers, with students, with young people generally, there’s been a growing understanding that in the changing world of work, with new technologies, and different work patterns and different work experiences, that there is a greater importance on education and training.

I liken it to the first Labour government, with Peter Fraser saying secondary school education needs to be available for everyone, we can’t have a world where not everybody gets secondary education. You fast forward to the 21st century, I believe that applies to post-secondary education. So we’re trying to do something here that is about shifting New Zealand to what is going to be required for us to have decent jobs and a high standard of living. So I’m really pleased we’ve done it. Obviously I’ve been banging on about this issue for about 26 years now, in terms of the cost of education, so I’m very pleased about that, but this policy’s a bit broader and a bit wider than that.

The Labour Party has changed a lot, as have many similar parties around the world, since the Rogernomics period. But do you think this policy is, symbolically as much as anything, a real repudiation of the fourth Labour government?

It quite clearly goes against what the fourth Labour government did, which was to introduce upfront fees. Now, they introduced upfront fees in a restricted and minor way compared to what then happened under National, but, yeah, it is quite clearly going in the other direction. I was at high school when that policy came into force. What I know about the world that we live in today is that we need to ensure that every New Zealander gets the opportunity for post-high-school training and education, and that is critical for their future. I don’t want to see any barrier set up.

So I’m not sitting there with a checklist of Roger Douglas’s things that I’m unpicking. I don’t care about that. I’m looking at the situation we’ve got now. But quite clearly it goes in the opposite direction.

You talked about the future of work project, which is obviously a big deal for your party and for you, and then education policy is tangentially connected to that. Are there going to be big ideas, big programmes that come out of that, because it seems to me there’s a danger that it just comes across as waffly. Are we going to see something big like a universal basic income, something like that?

We are looking at that. The goal of this project is to give us the set of policies that we can take to New Zealand and say, here’s how Labour thinks that we’re going to be able to ensure that every New Zealander has decent work and a good standard of living in the future. You can’t do that if you’re not proposing big ideas. You said “tangentially”, but I’d challenge that. This is core. The three-years-free policy is core to the idea of how New Zealanders adjust to the future of work and the importance of high skilled workers for a productive economy. I know that sounds like jargon but it’s real. So this is part of the future of work, and you will see other policies that are like this.

When we do our final report of the Future of Work Commission in November, it will be a mixture of concrete, specific policies, some big, some smaller and more practical, and some directional stuff, because there are some things that we can’t really resolve right now, today, and some of those are around issues like taxation and so on. But one of the topics already out in one of our discussion papers is should there be a universal basic income. At the conference we’re holding at the end of March in Auckland, Guy Standing, who’s written this book The Precariat, who’s an advocate of a UBI, he’s one of our keynote speakers. So, you know, we are prepared to look at that.

I didn’t make the comment light-heartedly at the start of the year that people should expect some radical thinking, and I think we’ve shown that with the first announcement.

Back to the Prime Minister. Third term, people are talking about a fourth. Is he brilliant, or are Labour useless, or is it a bit of both?

It bedevils me every day. I wake up in the middle of the night and – no, I mean, if I stand back I can see that he is a gifted politician. And I mean that both pejoratively and slightly enviously, in the sense that, you know, you don’t win three elections if you’re not a good politician. And he clearly is a good politician.

Do you think some people in Labour didn’t appreciate that early on?

Certainly, in the beginning, I don’t think we did. I think really honestly – I remember where I was when he was elected leader of the National Party, and I think we all thought: they’ve elected a money trader, etcetera, etcetera, and then we had the global financial crisis, and it was all blamed on people like him, and surely people would come to see who this man is. Well, it wasn’t the case at all. So I do think we underestimated him. As my mother would say, he’s all map and no compass, in that he can follow the feel of where he thinks the electorate is, or what’s going to work, but I don’t think it’s driven by a great feeling of where he’s taking the country and the importance of the direction we go on.

So I still fundamentally believe his approach is flawed and wrong. But I appreciate the fact that he’s won three elections and he’s clearly tapped into something in the New Zealand political psyche that’s made him successful.

Clearly we didn’t go well at various points over the last eight years, and the election campaign, or the election last year, was the nadir of that. So we’ve also got to look closely at ourselves and we’ve done that. That’s one of the advantages of the leadership process that we’ve now got – you’re put in a position of needing to look at things differently, and Andrew’s done that as the leader, and I think he’s done it well.

You talked in your post this morning about the current Black Caps team being unlike previous teams made up of individuals who would clearly rather not be in the same room as each other, saying McCullum’s was the opposite, and that’s something you can’t fake. Looking around the Labour caucus room, to draw the obvious comparison, and I guess I know what you’re going to say –

Of course you do, but I’ll say it –

is that similar, seriously, hand on heart?

Yeah it is. And that’s what last year was about. Andrew was very clear with the caucus, and he set a very simple goal: that we would be a unified team. We would work on making sure it happened, addressing why it might not happen. And we are. There will be blips from time to time, but the caucus is functioning and working together as well as it has in the eight years I’ve been there, and that’s a hand on heart answer.

And what’s going to happen this afternoon?

Jesus, I don’t know. Actually I’m feeling OK, because the pitch is flattening out, so I’ll say we’ll get to 187.

[New Zealand were bowled out for 183.]

Keep going!
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InterviewsJanuary 20, 2016

“We don’t get a lot of Government support” – Flightless’ John O’Reilly on the plight of the NZ gaming industry

element_014

From How Bizarre to The Lord of the Rings, the New Zealand entertainment industry has performed well internationally across a variety of mediums. But, Path of Exile aside, these small islands are yet to birth any significant gaming classics. Don Rowe speaks with John O’Reilly about the challenges and triumphs of designing games in New Zealand and the development of Flightless’ latest release Element

I wrote last week about Element, the second game by design firm-cum-indie developer Flightless. Though still in early access, Element is a complex and satisfying experience bundled in a low-poly, minimalist package and marketed as a real-time strategy game for those without the time to play one. However the story of Element’s conception can’t be squeezed into a ‘first look’ review. For it is a tale of genre-bending and augmented reality, adaptation and integration. A journey of discovery and experimentation stretching from the windy Wellington basin to the shade of the now-crisped Mt Maunganui.

Actually, it’s mostly just an interesting chat with implications around game design and the NZ gaming industry as a whole.

I spoke with John O’Reilly, Artistic Director at Flightless. We talked about the process of transitioning from a designer firm to a game developer, working with major firms like Sony and Microsoft, the challenges of producing games in New Zealand and the future of augmented reality and technological interaction in general. An edited transcript of that conversation is below.

Tell me about Flightless. 

We started Flightless way back in 2005. There’s myself as artistic director and Greg Harding, our technical director. At the time, we were more of a multi-discipline design studio doing web and branding, but we’ve always been passionate about interactive, so our passion projects have been things at Te Papa and Auckland Museum that gave us a chance to combine our skills in audio, visual and programming in one project. In doing that interactive stuff, you’re always challenging yourself to come up with new ways to present information to the public, and in the museum space that means screens and physical displays, and then blurring lines between them with augmented reality technology. Ironically, when we decided to focus a lot more on games it was partly because the technologies we were using for games were more similar to those kind of museum display technologies.

Element is your most ambitious game, but it’s not your first. How did it come about?

Element started as a small game about two years ago after we did our first game Bee Leader, which was relatively successful for us. We thought, ‘Ok, we’ll do a suite of smaller games,’ but it quickly turned into something that was much bigger. We were playing with augmented reality about 2.5 years ago during another project we were doing for Auckland Museum and through that process I started to get into 3D modelling a little bit more – I’m traditionally just in graphic design and 2D-based stuff. I started messing around with faux-poly world structures, and the game sort of came off the top of that. We thought ‘Hey, how cool would it be to have this 3D globe spinning in front of you, on top of your phone, and then how could we augment that?’ So I did some prototypes in terms of look and feel. We’re a design company essentially so everything we do game-wise generally has a design aesthetic to it rather than a traditional game aesthetic. It’s been a slow burn, we started Element two years ago, and ideally it would have been out a year ago, but it just came out of a ‘look’. We thought we could make a game that blended that info-graphic look with something a little more realistic.

The thing that struck me is the instantly recognisable crossover between the 3D printing you’ve done with these other projects and Element, it’s almost genre bending.

Generally most of the stuff we do on our client service side is museum interaction design and large scale installations, and what we find successful in that space is bringing some kind of physicality to the digital, so blurring the line between using a screen and something physical to input on that screen. It kind of opens up another avenue for people that are a little bit fearful of the screen, it lowers the barrier of entry to people. We did an augmented reality project where we used blocks to navigate this seaweed structure for Auckland Museum, and because we used a mounted iPad as a microscope we had people from seven-year-olds to 80-year-olds in wheelchairs using it without thinking about a screen as such, which was really nice. 

There are a whole stack of designers out there, but not necessarily that many working with augmented reality. Are you of the opinion that augmented reality and virtual reality are the next big thing? Is that the way we’re heading in both gaming and day-to-day life?

I think so. I think gaming and the gaming industry generally tends to be at the forefront of research and development. Gaming quite often leads the way for ICT technology, which kind of trundles along behind. We’ve always prided ourselves on being on that leading edge of tech and communications technology so we felt that being in the game space actually allows us to R&D way more than we could previously. When the app store launched we thought ‘Hey, we’ve been waiting years for someone to solve this distribution problem’, that is, being able to sell the stuff we do direct to consumers, so we jumped on that quite early on.

How did the decision to go multi-platform effect the game design?

Well it’s not a coincidence that there are five buttons down the left-hand side that snugly fit into an iPhone 5 resolution. The user interface actually all works on touch. And in fact, on touch and on iOS, it’s a great experience because you’ve got that natural pinch and zoom, and you can touch some of those buttons rather than having to use a mouse or keyboard. Ironically, we got a little bit of interest early on from Microsoft and Xbox One, so we had that process of ‘Oh ok, we’ve got to make it work for controller now’, and we were really shit scared about that because RTS games on controller are notoriously terrible, but in fact it’s our preferred input now. There’s something about the analog sticks being able to roll the planet around and the controller shortcuts for deploying stuff quickly – it’s become our preferred method of input.

Element gets seriously hard quite quickly. How difficult was it to find a sweet spot between ?

The game is still in early access which really truncates that ramp up in difficulty. The full feature game will have a lot more solar systems and the progression will be a little bit slower. People will be introduced to features of the game planet-by-planet rather than at the moment where we’re kind of throwing people in the deep end and the difficulty ramps up pretty quickly. The idea is to have two or three solar systems with a number of planets that we ease people in to. Part of the feedback we’re having at the moment is that the tutorial is a little too ‘on rails’ for people, but that tutorial is just a placeholder to bridge the gap between having one solar system and, in the future, having a few different ones. So we’re still working on that game balance and, if anything, a slower ramp in difficulty allows us to flesh out more systems and more features.

But the game is complex only because it asks a lot of the player, not because it’s ungainly or hard to work with. There’s a real interesting crossover there between the simplicity/minimalist approach of the game yet still having some real difficulty.

We’re still trying to bridge that gap between a completely wide-open, easy to get in-and-out game and something that’s got a little bit of teeth for people that do like the challenge of real-time strategy games, so we’re trying to lie somewhere in the middle there. It’s quite a hands-on game where you need to be able to rotate the planet and you have to eye ball what’s going on so we run that line between is it a simulation or is it an infographics piece. We want the models on the planet to be representational of your health and all the inconography and the models tells you about what their function is but also the height stack in the middle is showing you the health of the model so we’re trying to make something that visually holds up as a beautiful thing but also is quite informational.

Is that easier because of your background in graphic design, conveying information through different mediums without spelling it out for people.

I’m not sure if it’s necessarily easier. I think we think about games in a slightly different way than a traditional game developer. We come from a de-cluttering, less-is-more approach, so there’s not a heavy amount of leaning on effects and things like that, it’s all visual structures and good imaging, having nice simple models to understand and that kind of beauty layer. As a result we also found early on, once we had the prototype working, that it’s a really good watch – it’s really nice to watch someone play over their shoulder.

I was imagining playing the game on a Microsoft surface or an interactive tabletop of some sort.

It’s interesting you say that. We did a project for Auckland Museum using a table made out of three 48’’ touch screens, and then we ran the game on that and it looked fantastic. So we’re thinking about larger format. We were lucky enough to get shoulder tapped at PAX Australia by a Sony rep who sent us some development kits, so given some success we’re going to be able to do something in virtual reality, something a bit more grandiose, but at the moment we’re kind of just trying to make this as successful as we can to fund more of it.

Is there a benefit to being a small indie company in NZ? I imagine there are significant disadvantages to being at the arse end of the world, but are there advantages too?

It’s hard to get seen. But it’s not just a New Zealand problem, the visibility thing. I think the quality of the games coming out of New Zealand is on a par with anywhere, there’s a lot of great stuff coming out of here, it’s just getting that visibility and getting on the App Store lists, I think it’s a problem everywhere. But I think more and more it doesn’t matter where you work, especially for us, we’re in Mt Maunganui for God’s sake. We deliberately moved here to focus on games. We were in Wellington when we had our bigger design studio and we almost had to escape, just take a year off to focus on games and get away from clients for a year. We make sure we get across to DC and San Fran every year, and there’s an NZ games developer meetup which is great, but you don’t get a lot of visibility. You don’t get a lot of Government support aside from Callaghan Innovation and things like that, but I don’t see it as a huge disadvantage. You do need to spend more time and resource on getting your name out there and travelling to various events.

Callaghan Innovation is a name I’ve heard before across several different industries. Is it essential to have infrastructure like that in place?

I don’t think it’s essential. We’ve never actually had any government assistance for the stuff that we do and to be honest we haven’t really needed it. We try to fund our game development, our own products, based on our service work. So we do half a dozen projects a year service-wise, and for the remainder of the year we work on our own products. But it is interesting, the NZ games industry is doing better and better, but we fall outside that Creative NZ thing because we’re a highly technical industry, but we fall outside ICT as well because we’re also a highly creative industry. There almost needs to be a new category for games when the government thinks about kickstarting or funding or giving a little bit of a boost to the industry.

What would benefit the industry the most?

It’s an interesting one because traditionally with that start-up industry, a lot of the government funding is based on accelerating growth and staff and getting people jobs. For what we do, we can be extremely successful without having to have a team of 50 people, we can be light and small and distribution is not a problem for us. It’s generally just getting out, and the visibility. So cash grants for going to events and promoting yourself is probably, and I’m only speaking from my own personal point of view, but for us that is what we would need. It’d be really nice to be funded to go somewhere, to go to a number of events a year to get our name out there. If we knew we had funding to go to three or four conferences a year that’d be really handy.

Providing this goes to plan, what is the next step? 

We really want Element to go as deep as it can. For us, a multiplayer version is just screaming out. That would be the ideal, but that’s quite a huge chunk of time and effort to do that with this game. If it funded that, we’d love that, but in terms of the next thing, the way we get seen is by doing something different and unique and hoping that there’s a small amount or a niche amount of people out there that really like that. Because we’re only two people and because we’ve got relatively low overheads, we don’t have to be hugely successful to keep going. I really like the place we’re in now where we’re bringing a graphic design approach to gaming. I think gaming needs that. 

Because you don’t work on a game for this long without making the sort of game you want to play. We wanted to make a space RTS that we could play and would have time to play. We don’t have a lot of time to game these days. I don’t know who does, but apparently some people do. So we wanted that kind of Starcraft, sci-fi feel in an RTS, but one I could pick up and put down, and possible play through in 12 hours or whatever it’s going to be.

It’s the game that we wanted to make, the way we wanted it to look.


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