An astonishing monologue from the centre right commentator electrified audiences – then Don Brash called in the lawyers.

The video lasts a little over four minutes, part of an episode of The Working Group politics podcast, which invites those with polarised views to debate them live. Matthew Hooton, the former National Party staffer turned lobbyist and commentator, sits casually, one arm draped across the back of a black office chair. He shifts and straightens in his seat, and commences a political tirade for the ages, targeted squarely at former National Party leader Don Brash, and his advocacy group Hobson’s Pledge. 

“Hobson stuttered somehow to the Māoris when he was signing [Te Tiriti],” says Hooton, referencing the “pledge” Brash’s group is named for. “He said in te reo, ‘we are all one people’, apparently. Now I don’t know whether Hobson said that or not, but it’s not in the text, and so it seems quite pathetic.” 

Hooton is clearly wound up, gesticulating with force as he delivers a monologue railing against his former colleague. It goes on, and on, rising in fury, a trickle becoming a torrent which will not be tamed or diverted. At one point co-host Damien Grant attempts to intervene, and gets called a “dickhead” for his troubles. 

Hooton claims that he, in his former role within the party, installed Brash as leader of National, and refers to Brash’s infamous Ōrewa speech as “despicably racist”, before rounding into the core of his thesis. “He is a fundamentally bad person,” Hooton says of Brash. “He’s divided this country for no apparent reason, despite being certainly intelligent enough to know the things that he says are not true.”

Hooton goes on to say that “all it has ever been about is for a group of people to try and position [Māori] people as radicals and the ‘other’, and somehow dangerous to the mainstream. And that has always been a lie.” He concludes by suggesting Brash has knowingly lied about his own views – a very serious allegation. That’s what made the video so powerful. And where the trouble started.

Thousands have viewed the clip, and it has been widely circulated on social media in the month since its publication, with many who might not usually be fans of Hooton’s perspectives, celebrating its sentiment. However after racking up almost 10,000 views on YouTube in 48 hours, it vanished from The Working Group podcast’s official channels and social feeds. 

This is because Brash considered the implication that he was insincere in his beliefs highly defamatory, and has “retained specialist counsel”, according to his lawyer, former Act MP Stephen Franks. A letter laying out Brash’s position was sent to Hooton and The Working Group.

When contacted by The Spinoff, Brash made it clear that his defamation claim concerned only one aspect of Hooton’s comments. “I mean calling someone a racist these days is almost fashionable. It’s become so common. I do resent that, and deeply resent that, but when he claims that I was promoting a view which I simply don’t agree with, don’t believe in myself – I mean, that is quite preposterous.” 

A podcast comfortable causing offence

It’s not surprising that the incident happened on The Working Group. The podcast is the lovechild of staunch old school leftist and Daily Blog editor Martyn “Bomber” Bradbury and the libertarian liquidator and Stuff columnist Damien Grant. It has become popular in recent years due to its bombastic style and embrace of a combative argument across the political aisle, with a broad cross-section of views represented in guests ranging from Chris Hipkins and Simon Wilson to Jordan Williams and Leo Molloy. Its intro jokes about “avoiding defamation” – something it may not have lived up to in the episode from late August.

Along with pulling the recording, the letter seems to have already prompted some level of retreat from Hooton, according to sources familiar with the situation. That may not be enough to mollify Brash. “Notwithstanding an apology being suggested by Matthew Hooton,” wrote Franks, “proceedings are likely to ensue.” When approached, Hooton said via text “it’s best not to inflame or aggravate matters, I think” and refused to comment further. Sources familiar with the situation suggest he intends to apologise for the comments during this evening’s recording of The Working Group. 

Brash told The Spinoff in a pair of interviews that his legal issue was solely with Hooton’s persistent attacks on his integrity. “He didn’t suggest I was wrong. He suggested I was lying, and knew I was lying.” Despite his persistent positioning as a champion of free speech and opponent of cancel culture, Brash considered that aspect of the podcast a bridge too far. 

“I’m in favour of freedom of speech, but it’s one thing to believe in freedom of speech, another thing to accuse someone of flat out lying. That’s what Hooton has done… I don’t think that’s inconsistent with a belief in freedom of speech.”

What we can and can’t say

Reporting on defamation is complicated within New Zealand, as the law can consider reporting on claims to be repeating them, and therefore engaging in defamation too. In an email to The Spinoff, Franks said “it would be inadvisable for the Spinoff to repeat the defamatory comments”. However, The Spinoff specifically asked Brash for permission to repeat the claims in the context of our reporting, and he agreed, on the basis that we underline the fact that Brash forcefully rejects Hooton’s statements about the sincerity of his beliefs.

Brash is not the only object of Hooton’s derision in the fateful episode – he expands the scope to include the Act Party, a former client of Hooton’s, and its Treaty Principles Bill. “David Seymour cannot possibly believe that his racist Treaty Principles Bill reflects in any way whatsoever either the texts or the case law over the Treaty of Waitangi. He isn’t that stupid,” Hooton says on the podcast. “He’s doing it to inflame hatred in New Zealand.”

When contacted by The Spinoff, Seymour said he had not heard Hooton’s comment, but after it was relayed to him, confirmed he had no interest in joining Brash in any defamation proceeding (and, indeed, Seymour intends to appear on The Working Group again soon). “I always take Matthew with a large grain of salt. On his best day, he’s scintillatingly brilliant. And then there’s the days when he’s getting sued by Steven Joyce, or is adamant Todd Muller will be the best prime minister New Zealand has ever had. The trick with Matthew is to take the gems for their considerable worth, and be able to tell when he’s having one of his off days.”

As Seymour said, this incident is not Hooton’s first time testing the limits of defamation law. In 2018 he wrote a column for the National Business Review concerning former National finance minister Steven Joyce, before ultimately apologising for it as part of a settlement in which he agreed to pay Joyce’s legal fees. The NBR did not concede, and the saga dragged on for years, ultimately leading to a judgement in the publication’s favour. 

The divide there ran deep, but so does the ill feeling between Brash and Hooton. Based on Franks’ statements, there’s nothing to suggest this episode is likely to end with an apology. It reveals a vast rift between two major figures within rightwing politics, and suggests that there is no consensus about the persistent campaign against the treaty and other gains for te ao Māori within some parts of the right. These two one-time collaborators are now bitterly divided, and while the podcast is gone, the enmity lingers.