Win or lose, the Black Ferns and this World Cup have changed New Zealand rugby for good. Dylan Cleaver and Scotty Stevenson look back.

This post was first published on Dylan Cleaver’s newsletter The Bounce. Sign up here.

The Black Ferns stand on the cusp of a remarkable turnaround in fortunes as they face one more sleep (or perhaps sleepless night would be more apt) before their World Cup final at Eden Park. A year ago their campaign was in disarray as they left Covid-enforced hibernation and were taught a lesson in modern, power-based and disciplined rugby by England and France.

Worse was to follow, with a report into the programme finding a divisive team culture and resourcing that was inadequate (with, in hindsight, nowhere near enough acknowledgement that the latter had directly led to the former). With a home World Cup imminent heavy hitters were parachuted into the Black Ferns, most notably coach Wayne Smith and mentor Graham Henry, but also behind-the-scenes high-performance facilitators like former Black Fern Hannah Porter.

In a delicious twist of fate, the Black Ferns have been pitted against the two teams that made their lives a misery up north a year ago, France and England, in the semifinal and final.

Last week, the Black Ferns edged Les Bleues by one point in a breathless and wildly entertaining match, while England leaned on a stunning solo intervention from Abby Dow to defeat Canada.

On the eve of the last day of action, I shared a file with my old mate and Spark Sport front man Scotty Stevenson and got chatting. Well, mainly I just threw stuff at a wall and waited to see how he’d respond.

DC: You’ve watched more of England than I have. Can the Black Ferns beat them or is this the white wall upon which they succumb?

SS: The Black Ferns have started slowly in their two World Cup matches at Eden Park, trailing both Australia and France and having to play catch up. Both matches showed this team can stay like the mother-in-law, but they can ill afford to get caught in the moment (and it will be some moment) this week. England is number one for a reason. The team plays the set pieces well and is beautifully, if a little predictably, organised in attack and defence. That said, the narrow defence does offer wide chances and the Ferns pack last week took another huge step forward. If the home side can combine chaos with accuracy, an upset is on the cards.

DC: If ever there was an instructional video titled “How not to close out a rugby match”, last week’s semifinal would have to be used as a graphic illustration. Is it patronising to say that this lack of situational nous – the result of years of neglect and inactivity for the women’s 15-a-side game – is part of the reason it’s such a compelling watch?

SS: I understand the point but knockout rugby does not discriminate along gender lines. Big pressure creates desperation and desperation can be the bedfellow of disarray. Closing out is a skill honed with confidence, and both teams would have looked at last week and rued some of the decision making.

DC: I’m not going to argue with you… well, just a little bit, but I think closing out is a skill honed not just by confidence but by experience too. A lot of these players just haven’t played that much high-stakes footy and it can result in this wonderful, uninhibited, coach-killing bedlam and I want to savour it before the roundheads defeat the cavaliers (not those Cavaliers).

Early in the tournament, after the first weekend to be precise, I expressed frustration that the tournament was being covered more like a socio-cultural event than an elite sporting tournament. I was gently chided for that and the suggestion was that a) it is a socio-cultural event and b) perhaps the reason non-rugby fans were turning up at the grounds was for precisely that reason. I’m prepared to concede ground there.

In the meantime, the tournament is attracting feature pieces in Elle, a bunch of good stuff in websites and papers across our fine land (including Madeleine Chapman’s case for the Black Ferns being the best rugby product on the planet), and it’s tremendously gratifying to see the Guardian’s Robert Kitson, in my opinion the finest rugby scribbler on the planet, in Auckland and not West London this weekend.

You’ve been on the ground, are you satisfied with how the World Cup has been covered?

SS: I can’t speak for other media outlets but maybe it is actually refreshing to lean on some different voices for this World Cup. It has been an opportunity for some younger writers and broadcasters to show their chops. At Spark Sport and Three Sport we have covered every test like a test. That’s the way it should be. I think by and large the majors have been solid in terms of their aim to showcase the tournament.

As for the socio-cultural side of things, that actually has been a large part of what has made this event the success that it has been. RWC 2021 will break the previous attendance record by 100,000. It’s predicted that more than a million will tune into the final in New Zealand alone. That will outstrip the viewership for the All Blacks.

Let that sink in.

The crowds at the grounds have been different, shorn of the booze-fuelled expectation and menace that permeates the men’s game. Families, first time fans, an incredible spirit of support – that’s what I have noticed most. It’s a friendly place to be.

That IS a socio-cultural shift, a welcome one,  and we should celebrate it. Last week’s matches were great advertisements for rugby – not just women’s rugby. That too has played a part in changing attitudes. I am sure you have had your share of conversations with people who have suddenly become engaged, or re-engaged, with the game. I have. It’s been a joy.

DC: Yeah no doubt. Last Saturday, for example, we gathered at a neighbour’s place to break bread and everybody stopped and came inside at 7.30pm to watch the game and I can say with some confidence there would have been more than one person there who would never have seen a game of women’s 15s a few weeks ago. This is veering into dangerously unscientific and small-sample-size territory too but I noticed how everybody just sat back and enjoyed the show without any of those angsty viewing habits that can make watching the ABs in a group setting an unpleasant experience. Yes, there was a fair bit of eyebrow raising and “what is going on here” in that final quarter but there were no “the coach is a c***”, or “Sam Cane is s***”, or “the ref is a f****** idiot” going on.

Break it down for me. Best back three player at the RWC. Best midfield back (this one’s easy for me, initials TF, wears black), best half, best back-row forward, best lock, best front rower? The floor is yours. No ties.

SS: For me, Ruby Tui has been the most industrious of the back three players and gets the nod on work rate and versatility.

I am not going to argue with Theresa Fitzpatrick. Quite a phenomenal tournament for her and a massive test this week. Could be the key to unlock the England defence.

Zoe Harrison for me has been the most consistent if not the most exciting of the halves. I would give her the vote because of the way she drives the England game plan. It doesn’t work without a good 10.

There were plenty of candidates in the back row contest but Canadian captain Sophie de Goede was superb all tournament long. Her all-round play is excellent, her leadership outstanding.

If I had to pick a second row I would be putting Madoussou Fall in first. A towering lineout presence, impressive on attack and brutal on defence.

And for the front row, I’m going to throw Amy Cockayne’s name in the hat. She’ll play her 70th test for the Red Roses this weekend and delivers every time she takes the field. Great darts, huge work rate.

DC: Any surprises for you in the XVs named? For the reader, they are:

NZ: Renee Holmes, Ruby Tui, Stacey Fluhler, Theresa Fitzpatrick, Portia Woodman, Ruahei Demant (c), Kendra Cocksedge, Charmaine McMenamin, Sarah Hirini, Alana Bremner, Chelsea Bremner, Maiakawanakaukani Roos, Amy Rule, Georgia Ponsonby, Phillipa Love. Replacements: Luka Connor, Krystal Murray, Santo Taumata, Joanah Ngan-Woo, Kennedy Simon (co-c), Ariana Bayler, Hazel Tubic, Ayesha Leti-I’iga.

ENGLAND:  Ellie Kildunne, Lydia Thompson, Emily Scarratt, Holly Aitchison, Abby Dow, Zoe Harrison, Leanne Infante, Sarah Hunter (c), Marlie Packer, Alex Matthews, Abbie Ward, Zoe Aldcroft, Sarah Bern, Amy Cokayne, Vickii Cornborough. Replacements: Lark Davies, Maud Muir, Shaunagh Brown, Cath O’Donnell, Poppy Cleall, Sadia Kabeya, Claudia MacDonald, Tatyana Heard.

SS: I am surprised Heard is on the bench. I think that’s a win for NZ and a sign England want a kicking No12. Claudia MacDonald must be shaking her head too. I thought Arihiana Marino-Tauhino might get the nod to back Cocksedge, who played 80 last week, but McMenamin being the only starting change is a no-brainer.

DC: When this tournament comes back here, and I’m certain it will, I’d love to see more teams, more venues and frozen margarita machines. I’d like to see Lorde open the tournament and Tay-tay play the final halftime show accompanied by Darude. I’d like to watch that final at a perfectly sized and sited rectangular stadium in downtown Auckland, but I’m a man of simple pleasures and tastes. Anything you’d like to see?

SS: When this tournament returns, we won’t be quibbling about socio-cultural change, and the tournament will be nationwide because it will make sense financially. If it takes four World Cup cycles to get back here and organisers are still having to pinch pennies, then all of us as fans, stakeholders, sponsors, writers, broadcasters, and administrators have failed. And I can’t think that would be acceptable. Not to me.

Not to these women.

DC: Thanks Scotty, enjoy the show.

New Zealand v England, RWC final: 7.30pm tonight at Eden Park, Auckland, and on Spark Sport