The first leaders’ debate of Election 2023 kicks off at 7pm on TVNZ1. Follow along with our live updates as Chrises Hipkins and Luxon go head to head.
Just when you thought we must have covered all the big topics by now, we’ve only just got to the climate crisis. Luxon agreed there was one and that it was very serious. In terms of acting with urgency, Hipkins said now was not the time to take the foot off the accelerator, and stuck the boot in to National for kicking the can down the road on agricultural emissions (apologies for the mixed foot-based metaphors). To that, Luxon said our farmers were carbon-efficient and we didn’t want production to move offshore. Then there was some chat about EVs, and Luxon used the word penetration, then Mutch McKay asked whether they worried about the world they were leaving their kids and grandkids. Both said yes. Asked what they were personally doing to combat the climate crisis, and whether they’d ever considered going vegetarian, neither was exactly impressive, mentioning EVs and recycling. And with that, the debate is over. Jack Tame is returning shortly with an expert panel to dissect the Chrises’ performances, but I’m bowing out. In about an hour’s time we’ll have the verdicts from our very own expert panel, so keep an eye on The Spinoff for that. If you’re wondering about Luxon’s favourite book, let me enlighten you. The Inner Game of Tennis (I wrote down Mind instead of Game, which was probably my fault but could have been Luxon’s) is by W Timothy Gallwey and “is a revolutionary programme for overcoming the self-doubt, nervousness, and lapses of concentration that can keep a player from winning”. We’re now talking about housing, which is very important, but honestly, can we all agree that 90 minutes is too long for a leaders’ debate? I am exhausted. I hope someone has a chilled Pepsi Max and Coke Zero on ice for these blokes. Anyway, Hipkins said landlords shouldn’t get tax breaks, Luxon said landlords were people too and could even be Labour Party members. Mutch McKay asked the pair if they remembered what it felt like to own their first home, and Luxon revealed he and Hipkins had been reminiscing about it in the ad break. His was in the Wellington suburb of Ngaio and he had to sit on a box because he was too poor to buy a chair, or something. Then the subject changed and we didn’t get to hear about what Chippy sat on. Now we’ve moved on to the tricky topic of co-governance, and our Chrises are arguing about the Māori Health Authority. Luxon wants to scrap it, saying he supports co-governance on things like the volcanoes in Auckland (the Tūpuna Maunga Authority), but not in public services where it creates “two separate bureaucracies”. Luxon said, “I’ve actually been meeting quietly with different iwi up and down the country”, then talked about localism and devolution, to which Mutch McKay, fairly, said “what does that mean?” Then there was another round of quick-fire questions, some of which I missed, but basically: Should New Zealand change its name to Aotearoa? Luxon said no, Hipkins said he was not promoting it but not opposed. Should all students in state schools get free lunches? Luxon said yes, Hipkins said it should be targeted. Four-year term? Both keen. Favourite beach? Luxon said Onetangi on Waiheke Island (with an unfortunate lapse in pronunciation, which had been strong all night), and Hipkins said Raumati South, with pretty good pronunciation. Asked about their favourite book, Luxon said The Inner Mind of Tennis, and Hipkins basically said he had no time to read (c’mon, Chippy!) Both were asked how old they were when they bought their first home, and both were 24. Are Chris and Chris… the same person? Now we’re onto health. Asked what they’d do to entice healthcare workers to stay in New Zealand, Hipkins said they’d pay them more, Luxon said yeah, sure, but National would also train more doctors and build a new medical school. Hipkins said that would take too long. Mutch McKay then got personal and asked each leader when they’d last been to the GP. Both said relatively recently, though Hipkins admitted he was talking about taking his kid, which isn’t really answering the question. They then whizzed through mental health and dental health before arriving on whether Māori and Pacific people should be prioritised in healthcare. Luxon said it should be based on need, not ethnicity, and Hipkins was quite passionate, saying it was a good thing that the health system was addressing the fact it discriminates against Māori and Pacific people. Luxon reiterated National’s plan to scrap the Māori Health Authority, and Hipkins said there was nothing for non-Māori to be afraid of. Next up: co-governance. Crime is under the spotlight now, and Luxon had plenty to say about Labour being soft on it. Hipkins talked about turning young offenders’ lives around, Luxon talked about banning gang patches. Asked whether they knew what it felt like to feel unsafe, Hipkins demurred, while Luxon was far more direct, saying downtown Auckland didn’t feel safe at night. Hipkins criticised boot camps, Luxon said boot camps were all good actually. Mutch McKay chipped in with some facts about boot camps not working, and Luxon said he reckoned National could make them better. Luxon talked about teaching young offenders rights, responsibilities and discipline, then mercifully Mutch McKay suggested a round of quick-fire questions, which went a bit like this: Have you ever had a speeding ticket? Both said yes. Is now the time for New Zealand to become a republic? Both said no. Should New Zealand get a new flag? Both said they supported that move. Should te reo Māori be compulsory? Hipkins said “universal”, Luxon said no. Cell phones banned in schools? Luxon yes, Hipkins they already can. Both said they’d been to many church services this year, but all as part of campaigning. Both supported a ban on nuclear-powered ships. Both said no to cannabis decriminalisation. Both said no to vapes being prescription-only. Is the health system broken? Hipkins said no, Luxon said yes. Leadership is the focus now, and the pair are awkwardly asked what they admire about each other’s leadership. Hipkins mumbles something about Luxon’s commitment to his family, and Luxon says he admires Hipkins for taking on the job of prime minister. Asked if they trusted each other, Luxon said “he’s not a bad person”, and Hipkins said “I’d probably echo that sentiment”. Jeez guys, get a room. Questioned further about leadership, Luxon mentioned he’d run a business or two in his time and threw in a lovely line of corporate lingo: “I’m an outcomes-driven person”. Hipkins was in his element when debate host Jessica Mutch McKay asked Luxon how he was going to deal with, potentially, Winston Peters and David Seymour. Luxon didn’t say a lot and Hipkins chipped in with “Winston Peters will be running circles around you”. Luxon clapped back about the original coalition of chaos (bingo players: tick), mentioning Te Pāti Māori and the Greens and, weirdly, “the support of the gangs”. Asked about their flaws, both leaders did the classic turn-an-attribute-into-a-flaw thing, with Luxon saying he was “pretty hard-charging”, whatever that means, and Hipkins reckoning he needed to delegate more. Well the debate is well under way and there have already been more interruptions than a press conference hijacked by Angry Fence Man. Both leaders began with spiels about why people should vote for them – Hipkins was beaming from ear to ear as he promised to move the country forward, but said he couldn’t promise perfection. Luxon, meanwhile, appeared far more serious, and said the country was going backwards, urging New Zealanders to “vote for change”. Both looked far more natural when they got into the debate proper, though Luxon said “actually” quite a lot, actually. The economy was the focus before the first ad break – Luxon was critical of Labour’s promise to remove GST from fruit and veges, Hipkins was critical of National’s foreign buyer tax. So far, so predictable. Don’t forget we have all new 2023 leader debate bingo which you could turn into a drinking game if you really wanted to.
In past years, the TVNZ leaders’ debates have come hot on the heels of a spicy new poll released on the 6pm bulletin. This year, for reasons known only to the TVNZ gods, that isn’t happening – it’s coming tomorrow instead. Stewart Sowman-Lund has arrived at TVNZ HQ in Auckland for tonight’s debate, and guess who’s also there, stealing the thunder from the Taxpayers’ Union’s ubiquitous Debt Monster? None other than Karl Mokaraka, AKA Angry Fence Man, AKA “A man mountain who slips through the world unnoticed until he is suddenly there”, AKA the Brian Tamaki-aligned political hopeful who has interrupted multiple election campaign events. Tonight Mokaraka has brought along a big hoarding that depicts him popping up from behind a fence – a nod to his first brush with celebrity, that time he popped up from behind a fence to drown out a Christopher Luxon press conference. One can presume TVNZ security will be on high alert and the Hobson Street footpath will be as close as Mokaraka gets to the action tonight – it would be pretty impressive if he managed to smuggle that hoarding in without anyone noticing – but as Ben Thomas put it, how far away is Karl Mokaraka, ever, really? The first leaders’ debate of the 2023 election campaign kicks off at 7pm on TVNZ 1, with Labour leader and current prime minister Chris Hipkins taking on his National counterpart, Christopher Luxon, in a 90-minute head-to-head in front of a live audience (plus about a million watching at home). Hosting the debate is 1News political editor Jessica Mutch McKay. For a comprehensive rundown of what to expect within the wider context of the campaign and the even widerer context of the leader debates of yore, check out Toby Manhire’s very good piece here. In short, tonight’s face-off is the first of four Hipkins v Luxon debates set to take place over the next few weeks in the run-up to election day on October 14, and there’s quite a lot at stake. As Manhire writes, Luxon, a first-term MP, has been keen to play down expectations. But while Hipkins is a parliamentary veteran, a leaders’ debate is new ground for him too – and considering how Labour is slumping in the polls, the pressure is very much on. While the debate runs, you can follow along here for updates. Our roving reporters in the audience, Toby Manhire and Stewart Sowman-Lund, have had their phones confiscated, but they’ll be sharing their post-debate verdicts in a “group think” alongside the hot takes of other astute political commentators, which will be published later tonight. For the true debate-heads, why not play along at home with our 2023 leader debate bingo – the irresponsible and/or hedonistic among you might even be tempted to turn it into a drinking game. Leader debates from elections past have given us memorable lines and zingers aplenty – remember “my husband is Sāmoan, so tālofa”? – so fingers crossed for some oratorical fireworks from Chris ‘n’ Chris tonight.Finally, it’s the climate crisis
The Inner Game of Tennis
Housing and stuff
Co-governance and more quick-fire questions
When did you last go to the GP?
Crime, more crime, and quick-fire questions
It’s a veritable love fest as the leaders are asked what they admire about each other
Hipkins is smiling, Luxon is serious
Leader debate bingo
PSA: There is no poll tonight
Angry Fence Man is in the house (or outside of it, anyway)
What to expect from tonight’s debate
As the campaign lurches into blur mode, tomorrow we’re trying something new, strange and probably dangerous: an epic livestreamed Megapod – a full 12 hours of Gone By Lunchtime from 9am. Toby Manhire will be joined by Ben Thomas and Annabelle Lee-Mather, as well as a parade of high-profile candidates and commentators, to debate, discuss and tip into delirious mode ahead of the 2023 election. Join us at thespinoff.co.nz this Wednesday September 20 from 9am to 9pm.
