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Emily Perkins and Pip Adam are two authors discussed in the book. (Photos: Supplied / Design: Tina Tiller)
Emily Perkins and Pip Adam are two authors discussed in the book. (Photos: Supplied / Design: Tina Tiller)

BooksMay 14, 2024

‘I thought we could wear Zoolander outfits’: Pip Adam and Emily Perkins on the Ockhams

Emily Perkins and Pip Adam are two authors discussed in the book. (Photos: Supplied / Design: Tina Tiller)
Emily Perkins and Pip Adam are two authors discussed in the book. (Photos: Supplied / Design: Tina Tiller)

Audition by Pip Adam and Lioness by Emily Perkins are both shortlisted for the fiction award at the 2024 Ockham New Zealand Book Awards. Here the authors discuss awards, writing, Selling Sunset, review culture, Zoolander and more.

Pip Adam: Whenever I think about writers and our ambitions, I can’t help thinking of You Hurt My Feelings.

Emily Perkins: I loved that film, because it really gets the little humiliations that are so silly but I think most writers feel them (this is me trying to get out of saying “I feel them” lol – which I do). And it’s about how much we want others to reflect us back in certain ways… and if you need a mirror that’s only ever shiny and flattering, then you’re not going to be grounded in reality for very long. I don’t think the character has any friends who are writers – does that make what she’s going through more acute?

Pip: She has her son who is also a writer. But that relationship is not helpful because she puts herself in the position of champion in a way that leaves no space for her to share her insecurity or envy. Thank God for other writers, eh? I love the reminder I almost always get from writers, you especially, that the work of writing is separate from the work of being read. It’s so important. The other day I could feel my anxiety physically – my body was humming with it. I was worrying about how everyone hated me – the anxiety island I visit most often. 

Publishing is a minefield for me which hijacks me in surprising ways everyday. I went for a walk with my dog and it slowed me enough so I could write and while I was writing none of the anxiety I had been having was there. There was anxiety, sure – but it was productive, I was worrying about how best to write the book. I get this reminded when I talk to writers or read books. I find it tough that a lot of the systems around writing are designed to make us compete against each other. I’m thinking of publishing itself, bestseller lists, competitive arts funding and competitions. They all seem to pit book against book. When what we thrive in is community.

What impresses me about writing communities in Aotearoa is the work they put into resisting the division a competitive model demands. I think the same is true for individual writers. I think we’ve talked before about how writers are portrayed in films and TV. It’s interesting because it hints at what society’s agreed stories about writers are. I’m interested in why the theme of jealousy keeps returning? But also, the idea of the envious artist is quite pervasive, eh? Maybe jealousy is just a good character trait for any character.

The New Zealand cover of audition; photo of Pip Adam by Rebecca McMillan; and the Australian cover of Audition.

Emily: This really chimes, about writing itself being the place where the other bullshit goes away. I wonder if the reason writers are often written as venal, thieving, cold, self-serving – all these lovely qualities – might be to do with self-hating writers (lol) and a kind of pandering to the idea that writing is stealing. Which is another topic for another day! Whereas many of the writers I know have the opposite of those traits. I feel my ability to write is utterly entwined with my connection with other writers. Proximity to a real-life writing community isn’t available to everyone, but this is also one area where I think the internet excels though it might be harder in that space to have the “off topic” exchanges that characterise so many conversations between writers. The support can be as simple as knowing other people who have the same work challenges it doesn’t have to be an in-depth discussion about adverbs. 

I agree about the competitive models, though I see publishers and editors as champions and enablers like all the people who work in different ways to produce and distribute books. It’s an incredible field because people enter it for the love of reading, that’s the secret engine. But somehow within capitalism there’s the appearance of scarcity, like there are only so many column inches or this much display table space or this much money. And that has psychological effects that you have to work to counter. I knew a poet in England who used to call National Poetry Day “National Jealousy Day”. 

I know we both relished the scene in Ripley where he is editing Marge’s manuscript in complete disgust – while also enjoying his own ability to make it better. My favourite shot is when he writes on the page “This is not a word”. I mean, that kind of thing is all over my own drafts: “Make this better”, in all caps. Like you’re saying, I think, a supportive community is valuable in part because the self-criticism is enough for any given day. 

Pip: I just about gave myself whiplash nodding so hard to your reply. I agree completely with all of it. Especially the idea of self-loathing writers writing fictional writers. And I wonder if that is what that scene in Ripley comes from? Because Steven Zaillian is a writer himself. I can’t remember that scene from the book but I think it is so good because so much of any con is the story and I always think there is such a correlation between the scammer and the writer. Suspension of disbelief at a whole new level. I feel like that scene hits home so hard for me as a writer. I have a friend that said something like, bad reviews are hard because the reviewer often recognises the thing we, ourselves, hate about our writing and think we have hidden. That’s me to a tee. I’ve had some bad reviews but the worst one said my book was “humourless”. I am someone who is always told to “lighten up” and at the same time I value a sense of humour really highly. I think that is the core insecurity about my work – that it’s so sincere. 

Emily: But you are one of the funniest people I know our exchanges bring me so much joy in the way of laughter. I would call your books too layered to be read as only sincere, but carrying the weight and power of what matters if that’s sincerity, then yes they are brimming with it.

And yes, being reviewed makes me laugh at myself so much, you wanted this Emily! So why are you making your husband vet everything before you read it? Could it be… like a scene from You Hurt My Feelings?? And obviously, in general it would be great to have more of a reviewing culture, not less. Last year someone asked me how I felt about the place of fiction in contemporary culture, and being someone who writes it, and they quoted that album/song title by The Beths: Expert in a Dying Field

Lioness by Emily Perkins (Image: Archi Banal)

Pip: It is so interesting/weird/synchronistic that you mention that song! It always makes me well up. It’s such a perfect break-up song and a wild worship of loss of all types. Thanks for saying those kind things about my writing. So much of who I am as a writer is because of you. You were my MA examiner and your feedback changed how I think about my work. I’ve been so grateful for your generosity as a friend and writer. I found Lioness so inspiring. We’ve talked a lot over the years about how to write wealth and Lioness feels groundbreaking in the way it portrays the rich. It’s such a clever, radical, wonderful book. So, a big part of what I think about the place of fiction is fired by our conversations – largely about reality television. I’m often talking with you about how jealous I am of the reality TV form. The rhythms of people performing in a state of acute awareness of being observed is endlessly interesting to me.

Reality TV has made me love fiction more because it shows me the potential of the construct. Queer fiction at the moment is also showing me how exciting the form can be. There is something so fucking inspiring about writers using an existing form and pushing it the point that it’s fundamentally altered and almost unrecognisable. Also, and it’s so obvious it feels stupid to say, the writing I’m most excited about in Aotearoa is coming from Tangata Whenua. A book like Tīhema Baker’s Turncoat, or Ruby Solly’s The Artist, these are leading us to what fiction can do. Part of what makes Land Back an important concept to me is the surrender of resources to enable even more narrative sovereignty. With this in mind, Nadine Hura’s latest newsletter So you want to publish a book is a must-read. I was wondering if we’re going to approach the elephant in the room. We’re both shortlisted for the Acorn – do you think the outcome of that could affect how we feel about competition? 

‘Become a member to help us deliver news and features that matter most to Aotearoa.’
Lyric Waiwiri-Smith
— Politics reporter

Emily: Firstly, yes 100 percent to reality TV and its capacity to show systems and psychology in a way I really understand fiction aspiring to. There’s something in the editing too, the way they play with narrative I’ve just been reading some Vulture recaps of the latest Drag Race and the recapper is all about structure, narrative arcs and the producers as storytellers hardly discussing the content. The really hooky reality shows play expertly with withholding and instilling longing, which is a technical approach I feel both deeply drawn to, and complicated about. Art that leaves you stirred up can be used to both productive and destructive ends! I wonder how this could relate to that Brechtian anti-catharsis idea, that art should not discharge our feelings but send us out into the street with them, demanding change rather than sending us back to the sofa and TV remote. I’ve gone on a bit of a tangent here, but I feel like your work engages and stirs on the level of “let’s do something”.

Also there are characters in reality TV, like Bri from Selling Sunset who we are both huge fans of, who could totally walk across the pages of a Victorian novel, Edith Wharton or Henry James or something even earlier like Jane Austen. I love what you say about form and realism refreshing our attempts at representation, refreshing our imaginative capacities – and at the same time I feel like there’s some glimmering magic at the core of the process of fiction that is timeless.

On the elephant in the room, this might sound trite but I’m just incredibly grateful to be in the room along with it, and with the rest of you. There were so many amazing books published here this past year and I’d encourage readers to dive into any of them. On the actual Ockhams night I thought we could wear Zoolander outfits and both leap up to collect the award no matter whose name is read out. What do you think?

Pip: I totally agree about the gratitude to be in the room. I spoke to romesh dissanayake (everyone – read his book!) recently and he said this amazing thing about the book being like a friend that you want to look after, advocate for and celebrate. I found this really helpful for the ego stuff. Like, I completely disappear. I’m the chaperone. And I bring all the other books that I’ve read as well – so it’s like this massive psychic party of books. I’m all for Zoolander but I also kind of like the idea of a Selling Sunset style bell ring on behalf of the winner. As you can imagine I would quite like to be “lavender Balenciaga two-piece knit set” era Christine Quinn (with pigtails please) but I would probably end up being Mary Fitzgerald in her confused managerial phase. But yeah, DING DONG!

Emily: A much better idea! I’ll raid Amanza’s wardrobe. Ding dong for books!

Audition by Pip Adam ($35, Te Herenga Waka University Press) is available to purchase from Unity Books Wellington and Auckland. Lioness by Emily Perkins ($37, Bloomsbury) is available to purchase form Unity Books Wellington and Auckland

The 2024 Ockham New Zealand Book Awards ceremony is 15 May, as part of Auckland Writers Festival. Tickets and info online here

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BooksMay 11, 2024

‘Mothering looked beautiful but also chaotic and stifling’: On flatting with a newborn

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An essay by Lily Duval from the just-released anthology Otherhood: Essays on being childless, childfree and child adjacent.

I was 22 when my friend Alice gave birth in the living room of our pokey Addington flat. She laboured in the blow-up pool for hours. Garish fish swam along the inflated plastic sides as she breathed and pushed, breathed and pushed. We (her partner, our other housemate, Clara, and I) wrung out hot towels to put on her lower back. We took photos and stoked the fire. I was wowed by how contained she was, her pain threshold honed from years of kidney stones. She made birth look powerful and strong.

Still, it was a lot. A beautiful, mind-bending, life-altering lot.

Homebirth and child-rearing were the unexpected backdrop to the first half of my 20s. While other people I knew were experimenting with whatever substance was on hand or starting serious careers, I was bouncing babies or building block towers. This wasn’t by design. I needed somewhere to live after my flat dissolved and a friend of a friend knew two women who needed a flatmate. One of them, Clara, had a one-year-old baby.

Alice and Clara were already friends, but I slipped easily into their world in the way you do when you’re young. We bonded over books, crafts and a collective belief that the nuclear family was nuclear. Our partners lived elsewhere — including the father of the child. We wanted to create a women’s space.

Living with a baby turned out to be fun. I also discovered I was quite good with them. I could hold them confidently, sling them from hip to hip as I popped the kettle on or checked the mail. I could calm them down or entertain them with nonsense noises. This was a mutually beneficial arrangement. When I was on the floor drawing with crayons or reading stories, I forgot myself. The depression and anxiety that had dogged me since childhood dimmed. Compared to the hot mess of university parties, life with a child felt wholesome and meaningful.

As much as I enjoyed this new life, having my own babies was not on my mind. Children seemed like something for later – something that was situationally dependent. Children, I thought, were to be considered if the right person came along. I was good at considering things – I’d racked up four years of student debt doing it.

I was still young enough to find new and unusual things exciting. And living with children in my early 20s fit the bill. In our society, you don’t usually live with babies unless they’re related to you in some way. The house was a unique opportunity to experience life with children without the weight of a lifelong commitment.

Sewing my friend’s birth quilt (Photo: Supplied)

It wasn’t only the baby that made our house different. Nothing we did was subtle or coincidental. Everything from the décor to the food we ate was carefully planned. We idolised women’s communes from the 1970s and radical activists like those who occupied Greenham Common Women’s Peace Camp. We plastered the living room walls with feminist icons and our shelves were stacked with books by Anaïs Nin, bell hooks and Virginia Woolf. One day, at a secondhand store, I found a book called Lesbian Nuns Tell Their Story, and proudly sat it alongside The Enchanted Broccoli Forest and Cunt: A Declaration of Independence. Our house was a cauldron of religious-flavoured idol worship and raging wannabe-lesbian separatism. Even our letterbox wanted to “Smash the Patriarchy”.

The house was our collective creative womb. We sewed, crocheted, knitted, painted, scrapbooked and cooked. We blended the aesthetics and skills of storybook grandmothers with radical feminist ideology. We were militantly vegan. We hosted “Food not Bombs”-style community meals in the park, where we foisted baking made from chickpea flour and tofu on unsuspecting neighbours.

Each of us, at different times, shaved our heads. Even though I’d sported a short and shaggy style since high school, the experience of buzzing my hair to a thin layer of fuzz was more intense than I was willing to admit. I felt a sense of loss, as if my hair had sheltered me from the hard realities of the world. With my hair went my grandma’s floral dresses and unwanted attention from men. I started a lifelong love affair with overalls and checked shirts.

Bit by bit, we turned the back lawn into a riotous vege garden. We lined the kitchen window sills with used soy milk cartons made into seedling trays. That first summer, sunflowers arched overhead and sweetpeas, borage and nasturtium tumbled from curving brick-bordered beds. We planted the “three sisters” – corn, beans and pumpkin – and saw ourselves in them: the corn tall, straight and supportive to give the beans something to climb, while the pumpkins provided shade for the roots. Out back, a ring of stones marked a pagan circle where our women’s group concocted a pastiche of rituals celebrating female goddesses and the seasons.

All this wild creative energy manifested in other ways. By the second summer, Alice was pregnant. I remember taking her picture in the third trimester of her pregnancy; she held her belly while the garden rampaged around her, swollen pumpkins at her feet.

This seemed like a natural trajectory. What was more organic and women-centric than giving birth and nurturing a child? I wasn’t about to get pregnant, but I found ways to contribute my thoughts, writing an honours essay about Margaret Atwood’s Oryx and Crake and male jealousy of the power of birth.

In our house, birth was more than a remarkable physical triumph of the female body, it was deeply symbolic. Clara had taken the high she experienced giving birth at home and channelled it into studying midwifery. We spent many evenings discussing how homebirth could give women power over their own bodies. Clara had her birth picture up on the lounge wall. In the photo, she cradled her first child, her henna-ed hair flaming against the redness of labour. Anyone who came over for a cup of tea could see the bloody naked triumph of her motherhood.

Life was electrically ideological. It was also hypocritical.

‘Become a member to help us deliver news and features that matter most to Aotearoa.’
Lyric Waiwiri-Smith
— Politics reporter

After Alice’s baby was born in the living room, the energy in the house changed. Rather than three women to one child, there were two children to contend with. And from my vantage point, newborns seemed impossibly hard. Baby cries percolated in the night, occasionally bubbling over into long screams. Morning brought little reprieve. As well as the breastfeeding, there were buckets of soiled nappies to scrub and washing to hang out. Mothering looked beautiful but also chaotic and stifling. I had no idea how Clara and Alice were coping. I think often they weren’t.

Tensions had always simmered beneath the sisterhood, but with two babies in the house, they started to escalate. From Clara, I endured comment after comment about my childfree privilege – jealousy over my ability to pick up or put down a baby depending on my mood. I was given the silent treatment one day and then asked to babysit the next. I was always both inside and outside family life. For all the help I tried to offer, I couldn’t make milk flow from my breasts.

At times, I thought about bowing out. But if I felt as if I wasn’t ready for this life, how did Alice and Clara feel? I felt compelled to stay and help, and I watched as motherhood swallowed them.

There was the mundanity of rent, food and bills, and external pressures, too. As hard as we tried to fortify the world we’d built, the outside world insisted on ignoring the letterbox. There were the frowns of disapproval from my housemate’s parents at the way the children were dressed (boys in dresses!) or the strange separate living arrangements with the fathers. And there were the men themselves.

On paper, there was never much space for men in our world, but the children of the house told a different story. Men had always lurked on the periphery. I think we were ashamed of them. Mine snuck in my sash window at night. They were the quiet click of the front door at bedtime, the odour change in the “if it’s yellow let it mellow” toilet. They were like good Victorian children or obedient ghosts.

By the time Alice’s baby was born I’d ditched cis men for queer partners, but parenthood tied Alice and Clara to the fathers of their children. The difficulty of ferrying small babies between households eventually wore down any separatist fantasies we’d nurtured. Men started to come through the doors, in the daylight.

Clara gave birth to her second child in her bedroom, behind a closed door. Only her partner and the midwife were in the room with her. Before the baby arrived, I’d shifted into the garden shed, where bamboo forced its way through the floorboards and strange moulds crept along the walls. It was a high price to pay for a sense of independence. I wasn’t the only one not coping. Soon, overwhelmed by expectation and the relentlessness of living up to our own self-imposed doctrine, Alice moved out to live with her partner and some other friends. When the earthquakes shook the feminist icons off the living room wall, I decided I’d had enough, too.

The garden shed (Photo: Supplied)

Our vision lasted no more than a few years, but I still find tendrils of that experience curled around my adult self. The years I spent in that flat were formative – I became a feminist, learnt to cook and garden and craft, and I learnt a lot about children. But they were also damaging to my self-esteem.

It took me a while to embrace my freedom. Eventually, I began to think that if it was a privilege to be childfree, then the opposite must also be true. Privately, I started to feel that if everyone could spend some of their early twenties living with children — and especially with babies — then far fewer people would decide to have them later on.

For the remainder of my 20s, being queer proved to be its own form of birth control. Still, my childfree state was never a conscious decision. I’ve never felt that certainty about not having children I’ve heard expressed by other women. For me, it was mostly down to circumstance. At 21, I’d wandered into a situation that proved to be more effective than a long-lasting IUD. And though my opinions might have softened by the time I hit 30, my chaotic romantic life made children look like a laughable fantasy. I felt the tentacles of my family’s depression and anxiety questing for the next generation. I didn’t want to create anything it could sucker onto.

When I started dating cis men again in my 30s, I realised I might need to firm up my position. And when I met my partner of the past five years, the topic came up pretty quickly. He’s older than me and has never wanted kids, so it was not up for debate. Although it felt like another situation I’d simply wandered into, I was happy to have some certainty.

Now that I know I won’t have children, I’ve fortified my childfree narrative. If I ever feel a pang for my future old-biddy self, I focus on all the time I have to go tramping, lie in bed in the mornings, and write a book.

I was 26 when I held my sister’s hand as she brought my niece into the world. She was at home in a birthing pool. Unlike Alice’s, this birth felt more like how mine might go if I was to have a baby – a frenzy of uncontained agony and joy.

It was another successful homebirth. My sister was powerful and strong and my niece emerged in the tumbledown living room of my sister’s Woolston house in the early hours of the morning. I held her as my sister showered, and she did her first poo on me. It was the perfect benediction for a new auntie.

Being present for the birth of a child is a real honour. I can see why people want to become midwives – how they become addicted to the electricity of birth. There’s something so good and hopeful about bearing witness to the beginning of new life.

But, however powerful birth is, I’ve come to put more stock in the next part. Because despite the madness of that Addington house there were some things we were right about. It’s important there are more people in a child’s life than their parent or parents, so with my free time I take my five nieces and nephews on adventures – foraging for fungi, playing dinosaurs or simply reading books before bed.

My childfree privilege is the privilege to be in their lives – not as a mum or a dad, but as an auntie.

‘The Addington house’ by Lily Duval is extracted from Otherhood: Essays on being childless, childfree and child adjacent edited by Alie Benge, Lil O’Brien and Kathryn Van Beek ($40, Massey University Press). Otherhood is available from Unity Books Wellington and Auckland

Alie Benge, Lil O’Brien and Kathryn Van Beek will be appearing along with some of the book’s contributors at the Auckland Writers Festival 14 – 19 May. For more information and tickets visit www.writersfestival.co.nz